The Inescapable Trinity

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by darinhouston » Fri May 14, 2021 12:21 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 10:23 pm
Dwight - Actually, Steve has said that very thing - To baptize in the name of Jesus is baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I agree. Either way is valid.
I get that, and agree, but you are being inconsistent in the way you handle texts identifying "God." To my understanding, both are saying that they are the same baptism, and are done under the same authority, regardless of the name being used. But, you frequently cite passages where "God" is stated in a particular context and then when "Jesus" is cited in that same context elsewhere, you say "see there, Jesus is that same God." So, if you are consistent in your dealing with scripture, this would prove that Jesus IS the Trinity. Just an observation...
dwight92070 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 10:23 pm
Dwight - Quoting you: "you don't think he's the same thing as all three persons, do you? How do you reconcile that?" There you go again, trying to figure out the intricate details of the Trinity. We don't know. Try reading Job 38-41 and see if you understand all of those things. If we can't understand God's creation, how can we possibly understand God Himself? We CAN apprehend that there are 3 persons, but we cannot comprehend the essence of His being.
I'm not trying to figure out the intricate details of the Trinity - I'm trying to figure out if it is expressly revealed as truth and, if not, is it a rational and coherent explanation for the texts. It is those who defend the theory that should be able to consistently explain it. It is simply foolish (and disingenuous) to create (or support) a theory that is derived as a way to "make sense" of a text and then suggest it shouldn't have to make "sense."
dwight92070 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 10:23 pm
Dwight - You want an explanation of the Trinity? How's this? "I am who I am".


I'll leave that one since we've discussed the I Am passage at great length on here.

commonsense
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by commonsense » Sat May 15, 2021 12:13 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:42 am
Dwight - Okay, I'll bite. What does any of this have to do with the Trinity?
Dwight, there is no Trinity of three Gods. There's One true God aka The Spirit of God aka The Holy Spirit. Then there are gods- rulers who speak and act for God. They are His voice on earth, the physical hands and feet of His Spirit. Obeying them is the same as obeying God because they are One in the same Spirit and One in the same word. God created Israel, through Abraham, to be gods.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Sat May 15, 2021 8:35 am

darinhouston wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 12:21 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 10:23 pm
Dwight - Actually, Steve has said that very thing - To baptize in the name of Jesus is baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I agree. Either way is valid.
I get that, and agree, but you are being inconsistent in the way you handle texts identifying "God." To my understanding, both are saying that they are the same baptism, and are done under the same authority, regardless of the name being used. But, you frequently cite passages where "God" is stated in a particular context and then when "Jesus" is cited in that same context elsewhere, you say "see there, Jesus is that same God." So, if you are consistent in your dealing with scripture, this would prove that Jesus IS the Trinity. Just an observation...

Dwight - To baptize in the authority of Jesus is the same as baptizing in the authority of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The authority of one IS the authority of the other. This, in itself, does not say that Jesus IS the Trinity, although I would not necessarily deny that. Here, again, you are taking us into uncharted waters of the unknown truths of God Himself.
dwight92070 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 10:23 pm
Dwight - Quoting you: "you don't think he's the same thing as all three persons, do you? How do you reconcile that?" There you go again, trying to figure out the intricate details of the Trinity. We don't know. Try reading Job 38-41 and see if you understand all of those things. If we can't understand God's creation, how can we possibly understand God Himself? We CAN apprehend that there are 3 persons, but we cannot comprehend the essence of His being.
I'm not trying to figure out the intricate details of the Trinity - I'm trying to figure out if it is expressly revealed as truth and, if not, is it a rational and coherent explanation for the texts. It is those who defend the theory that should be able to consistently explain it. It is simply foolish (and disingenuous) to create (or support) a theory that is derived as a way to "make sense" of a text and then suggest it shouldn't have to make "sense."

Dwight - Not at all. The Trinity does make sense. The essence of God Himself is beyond our understanding.

Dwight - You, yourself, strive to make sense out of things. I'm sure you have tried to make sense out of who God is. But I'm sure that you, like all of us, have come to a "dead end", when it comes to knowing the actual "make-up" of His being. So you are doing the same "foolish and disingenuous" thing that you accuse us of. Actually there's nothing foolish or disingenuous about it at all. We're human. We want to understand and know God. The Bible gives us many clues and long before we arrived on the scene, godly men have taken these clues and come up with a doctrine that they called the Trinity. We can either accept their conclusion or reject it, but I don't think they were foolish and disingenuous in coming up with what they did. Given the Bible clues, I think the Trinity makes perfect sense.

Dwight - The Trinity is defined as "the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead". I think we can agree that that definition, as far as it goes, makes sense.
dwight92070 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 10:23 pm
Dwight - You want an explanation of the Trinity? How's this? "I am who I am".


I'll leave that one since we've discussed the I Am passage at great length on here.

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Paidion
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by Paidion » Sat May 15, 2021 11:27 am

Here's a better definition of the non-existent "Trinity":

Balonety!
Paidion

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commonsense
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by commonsense » Sun May 16, 2021 1:25 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 8:35 am
Dwight - You, yourself, strive to make sense out of things. I'm sure you have tried to make sense out of who God is. But I'm sure that you, like all of us, have come to a "dead end", when it comes to knowing the actual "make-up" of His being. So you are doing the same "foolish and disingenuous" thing that you accuse us of. Actually there's nothing foolish or disingenuous about it at all. We're human. We want to understand and know God. The Bible gives us many clues and long before we arrived on the scene, godly men have taken these clues and come up with a doctrine that they called the Trinity. We can either accept their conclusion or reject it, but I don't think they were foolish and disingenuous in coming up with what they did. Given the Bible clues, I think the Trinity makes perfect sense.
Dwight, It's true that we don't know everything about God. With that being said, God has shown us what we NEED to know concerning life as human beings. As Paul says, " because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen and understood by the things that are made."

People prior to Jesus, knew God. Again as Paul says, " Because, although they KNEW GOD, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Long before the doctrine of the Trinity came along, people knew God. It doesn't take a belief in 3 Gods to know God.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Sun May 16, 2021 7:11 am

There are clues or hints of the Trinity even before time began in Genesis 1:1-3. We see God the Father, the Spirit of God, and the Word of God spoken to begin the creation. Man even shared in the fellowship of the Trinity, until he sinned. Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; ..." But when man sinned, he lost the consciousness of the Trinity (besides other things), not to be regained for over 4000 years, when the Son appeared.

John 1 18 - "No one has seen God at any time; THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD WHO IS IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER, HE HAS EXPLAINED HIM."

So Jesus is IN the BOSOM of the Father.

1 John 5:11 "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son" Also 1 John 5:20-21 "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. Little children, guard yourselves from idols."

So, according to John, if we are IN the Father and IN His Son, then this IS the TRUE GOD and ETERNAL LIFE. All others are idols.

Also, in 1 John 5: 6-7, John says, "This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement".

Is it just a coincidence that John mentions three that testify? I don't think so.

If we are made in God's image, according to His likeness, and if there is a Trinity, then we would expect that we too, would have a "trinity" aspect in our being. Of course, we do. We are body, soul, and spirit.

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Paidion
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by Paidion » Sun May 16, 2021 6:46 pm

If we are made in God's image, according to His likeness, and if there is a Trinity, then we would expect that we too, would have a "trinity" aspect in our being. Of course, we do. We are body, soul, and spirit.
However, our "body, soul, and spirit" comprises only one person, not three.
So how do you know that the three aspects of God are just that: three aspects, rather than three "Persons"?

Call that a "Trinity" of you will. But it's a whole lot different from "God in three Persons—blessed Trinity".
Paidion

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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Sun May 16, 2021 8:03 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 6:46 pm
If we are made in God's image, according to His likeness, and if there is a Trinity, then we would expect that we too, would have a "trinity" aspect in our being. Of course, we do. We are body, soul, and spirit.
However, our "body, soul, and spirit" comprises only one person, not three.

Dwight - And the Father, Son and Holy Spirit comprise One God, not three.

So how do you know that the three aspects of God are just that: three aspects, rather than three "Persons"?

Dwight - Because each of them has the characteristics of a person - life, Intelligence, personality, emotions, etc. An aspect has none of those.

Call that a "Trinity" of you will. But it's a whole lot different from "God in three Persons—blessed Trinity".

Dwight - As it will always be when comparing humans to God Himself. We are made in His image and His likeness, but we are finite, and He is infinite.

commonsense
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by commonsense » Sun May 16, 2021 11:07 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 7:11 am
." But when man sinned, he lost the consciousness of the Trinity (besides other things), not to be regained for over 4000 years, when the Son appeared.
Dwight, no they didn't lose the consciousness of God for over 4,000 years. Abel was righteous, Seth began to invoke the name of the Lord, and Enoch walked with God, besides all the other Old testament examples who knew God.
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 7:11 am

John 1 18 - "No one has seen God at any time; THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD WHO IS IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER, HE HAS EXPLAINED HIM."
The begotten of God they are referring to here was Israel( sons of God) as begotten gods. "Israel is my son, My firstborn." They were born of the Spirit of God and His word which were in the heart of the Father Abraham. "My word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart that you should obey it."
"So it was that the beggar died,and was carried by the angels to ABRAHAM'S BOSOM.

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 7:11 am
If we are made in God's image, according to His likeness, and if there is a Trinity, then we would expect that we too, would have a "trinity" aspect in our being. Of course, we do. We are body, soul, and spirit.
God doesn't have a physical body. He is Spirit. God has a physical body via people who are "born of the Spirit" and obey his commands (aka sons of God).
"Your bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit."
Furthermore, soul and spirit are the same thing.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Sun May 16, 2021 11:24 pm

Have you noticed how the preaching of John the Baptist had a reference to the Trinity? He called for repentance toward God, faith in the Lamb of God, Jesus, and then said that He, Jesus, would baptize in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit is BOTH the Spirit from the Father and the Spirit from Himself. John 15:26 Another reference to the Trinity.

At Jesus' baptism, we see the Father speaking from heaven and the Spirit descending like a dove. The three are distinguished, yet we also know they are One.

The working of the Trinity on the Day of Pentecost is spoken of by Peter in Acts 2:32-33: "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear."

The apostolic church was built on faith in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The epistles of Paul, Peter, John, James, and Jude, and also in the epistle of Hebrews, redemption is traced to the threefold Source, and each Person appears as the object of worship and adoration.

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." 2 Corinthians 13:14 This sums up the apostolic teaching. The saving grace of the Son gives access to the love of the Father and the communion of the Spirit.

In Jesus' teachings, He gives testimony to the true personality of each of the Persons in the Godhead, and also gives information on the relations existing between the three.

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