The Inescapable Trinity

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Wed May 12, 2021 5:27 pm

Matthew 28:19 - "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit ..."

Did you notice that the word "name" is singular, not plural? Jesus "lumps" the 3 of them together as a unit with one name. This is what the early church came to call the Trinity. Tertullian, in the early 200's A. D. explicitly defined the Trinity as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

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Paidion
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by Paidion » Wed May 12, 2021 6:37 pm

Hi Dwight, you wrote:Matthew 28:19 - "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit ..."

Did you notice that the word "name" is singular, not plural? Jesus "lumps" the 3 of them together as a unit with one name. This is what the early church came to call the Trinity.
When Matthew wrote that, the word "Trinity" had not yet been invented. So what do you think was the one name that Matthew had in mind?
Paidion

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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Wed May 12, 2021 7:19 pm

Paidion wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:37 pm
Hi Dwight, you wrote:Matthew 28:19 - "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit ..."

Did you notice that the word "name" is singular, not plural? Jesus "lumps" the 3 of them together as a unit with one name. This is what the early church came to call the Trinity.
When Matthew wrote that, the word "Trinity" had not yet been invented. So what do you think was the one name that Matthew had in mind?
Dwight - He tells us very clearly. I'm surprised you missed it. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Wed May 12, 2021 7:22 pm

By the way, those were Jesus' words, not Matthew's. That's what Jesus Himself had in mind.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by darinhouston » Wed May 12, 2021 8:59 pm

This one is pretty well understood, I think. But, it is quite common to use the singular "name" in a compound sense as it it usually is used in a way as a synonym for "authority" (like by "the authority of Mom and Dad" or "under the banner of God and Country") . Consider also the biblical usages such as Genesis 48:16: “…the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac.” (some translations say "names" but the Hebrew is clearly singular). I believe I've even heard Steve make this point.

Also, I know you hate hearing such complicated things, but there is considerable debate about the authenticity of this longer version in Matthew 28:19 and that it was an early corruption. I'm actually not sure I agree with the critics on this one, but it's hardly a settled issue.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Wed May 12, 2021 10:06 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:59 pm
This one is pretty well understood, I think. But, it is quite common to use the singular "name" in a compound sense as it it usually is used in a way as a synonym for "authority" (like by "the authority of Mom and Dad" or "under the banner of God and Country") . Consider also the biblical usages such as Genesis 48:16: “…the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac.” (some translations say "names" but the Hebrew is clearly singular). I believe I've even heard Steve make this point.

Also, I know you hate hearing such complicated things, but there is considerable debate about the authenticity of this longer version in Matthew 28:19 and that it was an early corruption. I'm actually not sure I agree with the critics on this one, but it's hardly a settled issue.
Dwight - All it takes is a handful of dissenters to call it a "considerable debate". Now I will quote from the BiblicalUnitarian website on "Is Matthew 28:19 a Forgery?": "I am wary of textual arguments motivated by theology. As a result, I want to lay out for you the reasons why every handwritten and Greek printed text contains the full version of Matthew 28:19." He then gives several long articles on 1. Manuscript evidence, 2. Quotes from early Christian authors, 3. Eusebius of Caesaria, 4. Contradiction with Acts?, 5. Text, Exegesis, Theology, which I will not print here. His closing statement says: "Just because I do not believe the Trinity is true does not give me the right to rid the Bible of a verse like Matthew 28:19. To do so is to go in the wrong direction."

Dwight - At least the guy is honest. Anyway, Jesus' own words present a strong reference to the Trinity, of which He is "a part".

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darinhouston
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by darinhouston » Wed May 12, 2021 10:23 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 10:06 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:59 pm
This one is pretty well understood, I think. But, it is quite common to use the singular "name" in a compound sense as it it usually is used in a way as a synonym for "authority" (like by "the authority of Mom and Dad" or "under the banner of God and Country") . Consider also the biblical usages such as Genesis 48:16: “…the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac.” (some translations say "names" but the Hebrew is clearly singular). I believe I've even heard Steve make this point.

Also, I know you hate hearing such complicated things, but there is considerable debate about the authenticity of this longer version in Matthew 28:19 and that it was an early corruption. I'm actually not sure I agree with the critics on this one, but it's hardly a settled issue.
Dwight - All it takes is a handful of dissenters to call it a "considerable debate". Now I will quote from the BiblicalUnitarian website on "Is Matthew 28:19 a Forgery?": "I am wary of textual arguments motivated by theology. As a result, I want to lay out for you the reasons why every handwritten and Greek printed text contains the full version of Matthew 28:19." He then gives several long articles on 1. Manuscript evidence, 2. Quotes from early Christian authors, 3. Eusebius of Caesaria, 4. Contradiction with Acts?, 5. Text, Exegesis, Theology, which I will not print here. His closing statement says: "Just because I do not believe the Trinity is true does not give me the right to rid the Bible of a verse like Matthew 28:19. To do so is to go in the wrong direction."

Dwight - At least the guy is honest. Anyway, Jesus' own words present a strong reference to the Trinity, of which He is "a part".
Did I argue otherwise (I believe I noted I follow the traditional reading on this passage and not the critical text)? I would note, however, that it's a considerable enough debate that I believe Steve even mentions it in his verse by verse, or perhaps it was a lecture on baptism. So, thanks for the rant - it was not particularly helpful to the discussion.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Wed May 12, 2021 10:57 pm

Paul also makes a strong reference to the Trinity in 2 Corinthians 13:14 - "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

We understand that the word "Trinity" was not used in the Bible, because Tertullian had not come up with it yet, but the pattern (or picture) of the Trinity appears in many places in the New Testament. The Old Testament gives strong hints, and in some places, more than hints, of it.

The angel Gabriel gave Mary, the mother of Jesus (and revealed it to us, too), a picture of it in Luke 1:35 - "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God."

Matthew gave us a picture of it in Matthew 3:16-17 - "... and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

Paul referred to it again in 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit And there are varieties of ministries and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons,"

And we're just getting started.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Wed May 12, 2021 11:00 pm

Rant? Where was I ranting?

commonsense
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by commonsense » Wed May 12, 2021 11:20 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:27 pm
Matthew 28:19 - "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit ..."
God established His name in Abraham, the father of Israel, and in Israel the son of God, which now continues on through us in Jesus.
The God who was once known as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is now known through Jesus.

Isaiah: The Holy Spirit led them by the right hand of Moses to establish for Himself an everlasting name.

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