The Inescapable Trinity

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:11 am

Homer wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:36 pm
Darin,

You wrote:

So what did Jesus empty Himself of?
his reputation and the things due him as the true child of the King - he humbled himself in contrast to the first Adam who sought to be like God.
You appear to assume Jesus did not exist before He was born of the virgin Mary.
Dwight- A.W. Tozer put it this way: "When Jesus, who was God by Himself, alone purged our sins, He went back and sat down where He had been through the long, long ages - at the right hand of the Majesty in the heavens." (Experiencing the Presence of God - page 25)

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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:58 pm

Darin,

I can't seem to locate your post where you asked this question (or something close to it): If Jesus was already God, why, after His resurrection, would angels, authorities, and powers, be subjected to Him? Weren't they already subject to Him?

Well, I got a little help from Steve on that - actually a lot of help. Steve says that before Jesus came to the world, He was God, but when He came here, he lowered or humbled Himself, even a little lower than the angels (Hebrews), not in rank, but in privilege. He became a man, eventually even becoming mortal, so that He could die for our sins. Yet even the angels maintained their immortality. But He set aside, as it were, His privilege of authority over all other authorities, over angels, and over all other powers, for about 33 1/2 years. Yet when He was resurrected as a glorified man (which He wasn't before in His pre-existence), the Father basically restored to Him "all authority in heaven and earth", and once again, ALL angels, authorities, and powers were subjected to Him.

Here we see the amazing sacrifice that God made for us, to rescue us and bring us to Himself. Not only did He take our sins on Himself, and then die for us, but now He also retains a man's body, with the holes of crucifixion in it - FOREVER!!!! In heaven, we will have a continual reminder, of what it cost God, so that we could be with Him forever!!

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darinhouston
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by darinhouston » Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:25 am

So he was God, then he wasn't God anymore and then he was again? This is essentially the historic Trinitarian position (though they would definitionally say he never ceased being God even when he didn't have the attributes or authority of God when he wasn't in that pure God-state) -- I just don't think it is clearly taught and is a pretty significant conjecture -- that doesn't bother some, but it does bother me. I think revelation of such a thing would be rational and consistent and plain - mysterious, of course, but plainly taught. I just don't see the apostles writing things like "who in the form of God" if he was really God in the form of man. All theories have problematic scriptures, of course, but it just doesn't ring true to me the more I explore it. Some form of pre-existence (whether hebraic notional understanding or something more literal and personal) seems to be in view, but we just don't have much revelation to make dogmatic assertions.

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Paidion
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by Paidion » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:25 am

For clarity, I think we need to distinguish between affirming that Jesus was God, Jesus was merely human, and Jesus was divine.
I take the third position.

You are not your father, but you are human as your father is (or was). Similarly, Jesus is not God but he is divine as his father is.
No other human being can affirm this, for Jesus was the ONLY begotten Son of God.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
1John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.


(Underlining for emphasis is mine)
Paidion

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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:10 am

Isaiah called Him "Mighty God, Everlasting Father"; Micah said He was a "Ruler in Israel whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting."; Matthew said His name is "Immanuel, which is translated, 'God with us'"; John said "the Word was God ...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us ...", and "He was making Himself equal with God"; Jesus Himself said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father", and "I and the Father are one"; Thomas said "My Lord and my God!"; Paul spoke of "the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.", and "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God ...", and Paul calls God our Savior and Christ Jesus our Savior at the same time; the author of Hebrews says the Father speaks of the Son and says "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever." and "Therefore God, your God has anointed You ..."; again Jesus says "I am the first and the last ... and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore."; and John said "I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, 'Do NOT do that ... Worship God.", "And every CREATED thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, 'To Him Who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb (UNCREATED), be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever. And the four living creatures kept saying, 'Amen'. And the elders fell down and worshiped."

There's no conjecture here. The evidence speaks for itself. You may be uncomfortable or unbelieving, calling Jesus "God", and identifying Him as God, but the Bible authors had no problem whatsoever with it. You can explain away all the scriptures, but the scriptures remains and your "explanations" fall to the ground.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by darinhouston » Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:14 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:10 am
Isaiah called Him "Mighty God, Everlasting Father"; Micah said He was a "Ruler in Israel whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting."; Matthew said His name is "Immanuel, which is translated, 'God with us'"; John said "the Word was God ...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us ...", and "He was making Himself equal with God"; Jesus Himself said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father", and "I and the Father are one"; Thomas said "My Lord and my God!"; Paul spoke of "the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.", and "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God ...", and Paul calls God our Savior and Christ Jesus our Savior at the same time; the author of Hebrews says the Father speaks of the Son and says "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever." and "Therefore God, your God has anointed You ..."; again Jesus says "I am the first and the last ... and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore."; and John said "I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, 'Do NOT do that ... Worship God.", "And every CREATED thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, 'To Him Who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb (UNCREATED), be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever. And the four living creatures kept saying, 'Amen'. And the elders fell down and worshiped."

There's no conjecture here. The evidence speaks for itself. You may be uncomfortable or unbelieving, calling Jesus "God", and identifying Him as God, but the Bible authors had no problem whatsoever with it. You can explain away all the scriptures, but the scriptures remains and your "explanations" fall to the ground.
It's really frustrating to have you simply repeat every argument you have ever made over and over as if that settles everything, especially in a long list as though we've never provided alternative views for them. It's like in a debate throwing long lists of proof-texts that have been rebutted (even if still disagreement over them). It is an undesirable debate tactic (frequently seen as dishonest) and, though this is not a debate, it's sort of the same thing.

I know it frustrates you that people don't agree with you, but this "feels" a bit like yelling and storming out.

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Paidion
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by Paidion » Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:36 pm

Perhaps Dwight thinks that if he repeats his arguments long enough then we will gradually begin to accept them as valid, and ultimately as true, so that then his position will take preëminence over all others.
Paidion

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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:32 am

darinhouston wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:14 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:10 am
Isaiah called Him "Mighty God, Everlasting Father"; Micah said He was a "Ruler in Israel whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting."; Matthew said His name is "Immanuel, which is translated, 'God with us'"; John said "the Word was God ...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us ...", and "He was making Himself equal with God"; Jesus Himself said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father", and "I and the Father are one"; Thomas said "My Lord and my God!"; Paul spoke of "the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.", and "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God ...", and Paul calls God our Savior and Christ Jesus our Savior at the same time; the author of Hebrews says the Father speaks of the Son and says "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever." and "Therefore God, your God has anointed You ..."; again Jesus says "I am the first and the last ... and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore."; and John said "I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, 'Do NOT do that ... Worship God.", "And every CREATED thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, 'To Him Who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb (UNCREATED), be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever. And the four living creatures kept saying, 'Amen'. And the elders fell down and worshiped."

There's no conjecture here. The evidence speaks for itself. You may be uncomfortable or unbelieving, calling Jesus "God", and identifying Him as God, but the Bible authors had no problem whatsoever with it. You can explain away all the scriptures, but the scriptures remains and your "explanations" fall to the ground.
It's really frustrating to have you simply repeat every argument you have ever made over and over as if that settles everything, especially in a long list as though we've never provided alternative views for them. It's like in a debate throwing long lists of proof-texts that have been rebutted (even if still disagreement over them). It is an undesirable debate tactic (frequently seen as dishonest) and, though this is not a debate, it's sort of the same thing.

I know it frustrates you that people don't agree with you, but this "feels" a bit like yelling and storming out.
Dwight - This is by no means "every argument" or every scripture that we have discussed or looked at. I have and still do acknowledge your alternative views. I did not say that you've never provided them. But I guess what's frustrating for you, is that I still disagree with you. Sorry, but I would be lying if I said otherwise. It's unfortunate that my relatively short list of verses/passages is seen by you as being dishonest. The fact that I am repeating arguments that I have made before is not dishonest, even though you may find it undesirable. Is it a tactic? Maybe, but I did not deviously plan it to be that. Zik Ziglar said that "repetition is the mother of learning, the father of action, which makes it the architect of accomplishment.", although I was not consciously thinking of that when I made a list. There's nothing wrong with repetition, unless what you're repeating is a lie or evil. Then it becomes indoctrination. I simply made a list of godly men in scripture, who said that Jesus, or the Son, was God. Isaiah, Matthew, John, Jesus Himself, Thomas, Paul, and the author of Hebrews. I have heard your arguments to the contrary, which IMO are simply explaining away the clear, plain meaning of the text, and therefore are invalid. So, because I used such a "dishonest, undesirable, tactic" as repetition, I am accused of a fit of rage - yelling and storming out? You are really over-reacting. Do you really expect me to believe that you do not repeat your points?

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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by darinhouston » Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:33 am

Have a good day


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dwight92070
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Re: The Inescapable Trinity

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:36 am

Paidion wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:36 pm
Perhaps Dwight thinks that if he repeats his arguments long enough then we will gradually begin to accept them as valid, and ultimately as true, so that then his position will take preëminence over all others.
Dwight - This, from the man who CONSTANTLY reminds us that "The Father begot His Son as His first act." Who did you say is repeating his arguments? Are you also trying to make your position preeminent over all others?

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