Who is Our Savior?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Who is Our Savior?

Post by dwight92070 » Sun May 09, 2021 10:02 pm

Hosea 13:4 "Yet I have been the Lord your God since the land of Egypt; and you were not to know any god except Me, for there is no Savior besides Me."

Here we see that the Lord God of Israel is the only Savior and the only God, both for Israel, and for all of mankind. Yet in the New Testament, Jesus is called our Savior at least 14 times. How could that be? Hmmmm ....

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darinhouston
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Re: Who is Our Savior?

Post by darinhouston » Sun May 09, 2021 11:05 pm

From https://www.angelfire.com/space/thegosp ... 43_11.html

Isaiah 43:11 / Hosea 13:4
  • I, I, am the LORD, And there is no Savior besides Me. Isaiah 43:11

The Trinitarian Claim
Trinitarians claim that Jesus must be God because there is no Savior except God and Jesus is the Savior of the world.

The Claim vs. The Facts
Trinitarians are interpreting this verse to mean God saves apart from anyone else. However, that simply won't work since God had already raised up several Saviors to save Israel from their enemies (see Luke 1:68-71; 1 Cor 15:26). Moreover, Jesus is God's salvation (Luke 2:30), the Savior God raised up. The Scriptural facts tell us that Isaiah 43:11 necessarily means that there is no Savior apart from God since He is the One who raises up every one of them including Jesus.

The Problem with the Claim

1. What? There is no Savior besides WHO?
Trinitarians are unwittingly refuting themselves with claims like these. When it says, "there is no Savior besides ME" it doesn't seem to occur to Trinitarians who that ME is. If "ME" is the Triune God then "ME" is not the Father nor Jesus nor the Holy Spirit since each of these three is one person and the Triune God is a three person being. Neither the Father nor the Son, nor the HS, is a three person being. None of these three are the Triune God and the Triune God is none of these three. So WHO exactly are Trinitarians suggesting is the speaker in this verse? There isn't even an option they can choose which will not deny their own doctrine. If they say "ME" is the Father, then Jesus and the Holy Spirit are excluded. And the same goes for claiming either of the other two is the speaker. If they say "ME" is the Triune God, then neither the Father is not our only Savior, the Son is not our only Savior, the HS is not our only Savior, BECAUSE none of these three are a three-person being. Being a member of the Triune God does not mean you ARE the Triune God anymore than being a member of the Beatles means Ringo Starr IS the Beatles. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the three-person-being are four different identities. So WHO is "ME" in this verse? They have no answer which will work for their doctrine. This Trinitarian claim is self refuting. But what is more troubling is, "Why is this obvious fact not obvious to them?"

2. God has raised up Many Saviors

Trinitarians make the following observations:
  • Today in the city of David there has been born to you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11.
  • He is truly the Savior of the world. John 4:42.
Having made this particular observation, they therefore conclude that Jesus must be Yahweh God because God says, "there is no Savior besides me" at Isaiah 43:11 and Hosea 13:4.

Trinitarians ignore some very key facts. God has raised up numerous Saviors. The Hebrew word used in all the following quotations of Scripture is the exact same Hebrew word yasha translated as "Savior" at Isaiah 43:11. Also noted are verses were the word yasha is used - to save.
  • Then the Lord raised up judges who saved them from the hands of those who plundered them....When the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge. Judges 2:16,18
  • When the sons of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up a Savior for the sons of Israel to save them, Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother. Judges 3:9
  • But when the sons of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up a Savior for them, Ehud the son of Gera, the Benjaminite. Judges 3:15
  • After him came Shamgar the son of Anath, who struck down six hundred Philistines with an oxgoad; and he also saved Israel. Judges 3:31
  • The Lord looked at him and said, “Go in this your strength and save Israel from the hand of Midian. Have I not sent you?" Judges 6:14
  • Then Gideon said to God, “If You will save Israel through me, as You have spoken, behold, I will put a fleece of wool on the threshing floor. f there is dew on the fleece only, and it is dry on all the ground, then I will know that You will save Israel through me, as You have spoken.” Judges 6:36-37
  • The Israelites said to Gideon, “Rule over us—you, your son and your grandson—because you have saved us from the hand of Midian." Judges 8:22
  • For behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and no razor shall come upon his head, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb; and he shall begin to save Israel from the hands of the Philistines.” Judges 13:5
  • Then Jehoahaz besought the Lord, and the Lord hearkened to him; for he saw the oppression of Israel, how the king of Syria oppressed them. Therefore the Lord gave Israel a Savior, so that they escaped from the hand of the Syrians. 2 Kings 13:4-5
  • Therefore You delivered them into the hand of their oppressors who oppressed them, But when they cried to You in the time of their distress, You heard from heaven, and according to Your great compassion You gave them Saviors who saved them from the hand of their oppressors. Nehemiah 9:27
  • The Saviors will ascend Mount Zion to judge the mountain of Esau, and the kingdom will be the LORD'S. Obadiah 1:21
Trinitarians are not appreciating the facts. To claim that Isaiah 43:11 means that but God acts alone to save creates a contradictory inconsistency. God has raised up many Saviors. It also matters not what Yahweh was saving them from. The Trinitarian interpretation would then exclude all these Saviors which God raised up and their argument then contradicts Scripture. In the above verses we see that it was indeed God who raised up these Saviors. Apart from God, there is no Savior but God because it was God who raised them up. He is the one who raises up these Saviors. God is the one responsible for providing these salvations in the above passages. Each of these Saviors are Yahweh's Saviors and in this way there is no Savior besides Yahweh.
  • When Yahweh raised up judges for them, Yahweh was with the judge and saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge. Judges 2:19
Men are the means by which God saved Israel. It is by His own power that He saved them from their enemies. It is the same with Jesus. In fact, Jesus told us bluntly that he could do nothing from himself and it was the Father abiding in him which did the works. God the Father was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

3. Consider the Audience: Ancient Israelites

Isaiah the prophet was God's prophet to the people of Israel. They knew their Scriptures and they knew God had raised up many saviors to save them from their enemies. Let the reader understand the significance of this fact. When these Israelites would read Isaiah 43:11, they knew it didn't mean God acted along to save them. They knew it mean God was solely responsible for raising up human Saviors to save them from their enemies. Indeed, God raised up Jesus to save us from our enemies (Luke 1:68-71) and the last enemy is death (1 Cor 15:26). For that reason, Jesus is described as God's salvation (Luke 2:30). But the ancient Israelites didn't know about Jesus yet. They wanted to be saved from their earthly enemies as God had saved them many times before by raising up human saviors.

Carefully notice the context and what Yahweh promises to save Israel from:
  • I, even I, am the Lord, and there is no savior besides Me. It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you. So you are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “And I am God. Even from eternity I am He, and there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?” Thus says the Lord your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and will bring them all down as fugitives, even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice. I am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King. Thus says the Lord, who makes a way through the sea and a path through the mighty waters, Who brings forth the chariot and the horse, The army and the mighty man... (Isaiah 43:11ff.)
And in Hosea:
  • Yet I have been the Lord your God since the land of Egypt and you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me. I cared for you in the wilderness, in the desert land.
In each case, the salvation in question necessarily refers to how Yahweh God saved Israel from their enemies - Egypt and foreign armies. We must appreciate the context in which Isaiah 43:11 was spoken. Israel knew that God had raised up many saviors for them to deliver them from this or that. So when ancient Israelites heard these words from Isaiah it was impossible for them to conclude these words meant God saved by acting alone. They knew he had saved them many times by raising up human Saviors. These ancient Israelites would necessarily interpret Isaiah 43:11 to mean there is no Savior apart from their God Yahweh since He is the one who raises up Saviors for them.

Note also the following passages:
  • The Lord did not say that He would blot out the name of Israel from under heaven, but He saved them by the hand of Jeroboam the son of Joash. 2 Kings 14:27.
  • Salvation belongs to Yahweh. Your blessing be upon Your people (Psalm 3:8).
  • But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving that which I have vowed I will pay. Salvation is from Yahweh. (Jonah 2:9).
Analysis of the Facts

1. God Our Savior Raised Up a Savior of the world

In a similar manner, the New Testament several times refers to the Father as "God our Savior." Now carefully observe how the Bible speaks of Jesus in the very same way, God raised up a Savior, namely, Jesus.
  • He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.Acts 5:31
  • From the seed of David, according to promise, God has raised up to Israel a Savior, Jesus. Acts 13:23
  • The Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14
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God gave his only son to be His Savior. Indeed, we read that God gave Jesus to Israel, born of Mary, to save them from their sins (Matthew 1:21). And God "has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of David His servant" (Luke 1:69). It is God's doing, Yahweh who raises up this Savior just as He raised up all the other human Saviors in the Old Testament. We also read at Acts 2:21 that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved only to discover that the Lord in question is the man Jesus whom God the Father has made Lord by raising him from the dead (2:22-36). It is also quite clear that it is a human who is the Savior at Acts 13:23 (as quoted above)

2. God Our Savior and HIS Salvation: Jesus

And what is even more explicit is the declaration of Simeon:
  • And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, according to Your word; For my eyes have seen Your salvation. (Luke 2:25-30).
The flesh in Simeon's arms was his God's salvation, Yahweh's salvation. God has raised up many human Saviors and now he has raised up another human Savior who will save Israel from their sins and from death. Because God our Savior has raised up Jesus as HIS salvation it is also said of Jesus, "all flesh shall see the salvation of God" (Luke 3:6; cf. Acts 28:28). Jesus is our God's salvation, the salvation of God our Savior. Jesus is not Yahweh but Yahweh's salvation. There is no Savior apart from Yahweh since He is solely responsible for raising up Saviors for His people and the ultimate Savior He has raised up is Jesus, Yahweh's salvation. Indeed, that is what his name means.
  • Blessed be the Lord God of Israel for He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people and He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of David His servant. Luke 1:68-69.
  • He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31.
When we realize Jesus is God's salvation, it becomes quite clear that God raised up Jesus to be Savior of the world and in this manner there is no Savior apart from God. There is no Savior apart from God because it is God who raises up saviors to save his people from this or that. He raised up Jesus to save Israel from their sins. And indeed, we read in the New Testament that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. The Father abiding in Jesus did the works (John 14:10). It was all God the Father's doing.
  • Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. Revelation 19:1.
  • Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Messiah have come." Revelation 12:10
Conclusion

Jesus is God's salvation, the human Savior who God raised up from the House of David. When all the facts are honestly reviewed, it is quite plain and clear what is intended at Isaiah 43:11. The Trinitarian claim that Jesus must be Yahweh falls apart when two things are realized. First, the Old Testament shows us God saves His people by raising up human Saviors. Second, it is clear the same thing is occurring when we discover that Jesus IS God's salvation, a Savior who God raised up. Yahweh says there is no Savior without me. Since it is God who raises up saviors and since Jesus IS Yahweh's salvation then we should be able to see that it is quite true, there is no Savior apart from Yahweh because He is the One who raises up human Saviors to deliver His people. The Father (our Savior) has sent the Son as Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14). Jesus is the Father's salvation. He is the salvation of Yahweh our Savior.
  • In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his peity. Hebrews 5:7.

commonsense
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Re: Who is Our Savior?

Post by commonsense » Mon May 10, 2021 12:34 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 10:02 pm
Hosea 13:4 "Yet I have been the Lord your God since the land of Egypt; and you were not to know any god except Me, for there is no Savior besides Me."
Just as Hosea 13:4 says, God( aka the Holy Spirit) is our Savior and there is no other.

"Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them, who led them by the right hand of Moses with His glorious arm, dividing the water before them to make for Himself an everlasting name, who led them through the deep, as a horse in the wilderness, that they might not stumble?"

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Homer
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Re: Who is Our Savior?

Post by Homer » Mon May 10, 2021 10:30 am

Darinj,

Sorry to say it but that link you posted is absolute garbage.
Then the Lord raised up judges who saved them from the hands of those who plundered them....When the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge. Judges 2:16,18
When the sons of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up a Savior for the sons of Israel to save them, Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother. Judges 3:9
But when the sons of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up a Savior for them, Ehud the son of Gera, the Benjaminite. Judges 3:15
After him came Shamgar the son of Anath, who struck down six hundred Philistines with an oxgoad; and he also saved Israel. Judges 3:31
The Lord looked at him and said, “Go in this your strength and save Israel from the hand of Midian. Have I not sent you?" Judges 6:14
Then Gideon said to God, “If You will save Israel through me, as You have spoken, behold, I will put a fleece of wool on the threshing floor. f there is dew on the fleece only, and it is dry on all the ground, then I will know that You will save Israel through me, as You have spoken.” Judges 6:36-37
The Israelites said to Gideon, “Rule over us—you, your son and your grandson—because you have saved us from the hand of Midian." Judges 8:22
For behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and no razor shall come upon his head, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb; and he shall begin to save Israel from the hands of the Philistines.” Judges 13:5
Then Jehoahaz besought the Lord, and the Lord hearkened to him; for he saw the oppression of Israel, how the king of Syria oppressed them. Therefore the Lord gave Israel a Savior, so that they escaped from the hand of the Syrians. 2 Kings 13:4-5
Therefore You delivered them into the hand of their oppressors who oppressed them, But when they cried to You in the time of their distress, You heard from heaven, and according to Your great compassion You gave them Saviors who saved them from the hand of their oppressors. Nehemiah 9:27
The Saviors will ascend Mount Zion to judge the mountain of Esau, and the kingdom will be the LORD'S. Obadiah 1:21
So we have Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Gideon, as savior in the same sense as Jesus? That is borderline blasphemy. Unworthy of anyone claiming to be a student of scripture.

Did you know that throughout the Old Testament God is Lord and throughout the New Testament Jesus is Lord except where the Old Testament is quoted? Jesus is both Savior and Lord.

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darinhouston
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Re: Who is Our Savior?

Post by darinhouston » Mon May 10, 2021 10:57 am

Homer wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:30 am
So we have Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Gideon, as savior in the same sense as Jesus? That is borderline blasphemy. Unworthy of anyone claiming to be a student of scripture.
Homer, "Garbage" is pretty harsh. You may find it unconvincing, but he actually acknowledged he wasn't discussing "savior" in the same sense as Jesus, so that's an unfair response. Also, that context was not entirely made in the Isaiah/Hosea passages, either, and so this article is addressing the general context to prove the categorical context and further sense in which Yahweh is called Savior even through His agents. Was Moses a savior in a real sense to Israel? Of course he was, and the Jews would have had that in mind and had no problem with Isaiah's/Hosea's words. As a general matter, it's a good example of a qualified absolute. In the context, yes God is the only savior (there are no other gods who will "really" save you like Yahweh). But, that does not mean He personally does all the "saving." It can be said that all saving done by His power is Him doing it, even when He uses others and even when His specially annointed unique Son is denominated "Savior" since that's his primary mission in the world.

Garbage? I don't think so.
Homer wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:30 am
Did you know that throughout the Old Testament God is Lord and throughout the New Testament Jesus is Lord except where the Old Testament is quoted? Jesus is both Savior and Lord.
I'm not sure it's 100%, but yes I'm aware of that argument - are you aware that there is considerable debate over the difference between use of "Adonai" as Yahweh and "Adoni" (pronounced "Adonee") as lesser lords or those with reverence or high honor/position (and sometimes context makes it plain to the Jews that Yahweh is in view in an OT passage). I'm not proficient in greek, but from my reading, in some cases, the Tetragrammaton itself is translated simply as "Lord," so we can't just use the English "Lord" as confirmation of this point - A good example is in oft-cited Psalm 110:1. "YHVH said to my ADON...." clearly distinguishing the two. The greek "kyrios" on the other hand is more generic (more like Adoni). I understand that one way to distinguish between the two categories of "Lord" in greek, then is to say "kyrio mou" for the latter (Adoni/Adon). When Psalm 110:1 is cited in (for example) Mark 12:35-37, it is quoted as "kyrios said to kyrio mou...." Also, sometimes Yahweh is translated as "Lord God" to make it plain who is speaking where there is no passage I'm aware of that calls Jesus "Lord God." Word usage here is very contextual driven and (like theos), the ancients weren't quite as categorical with these words as we seem to paint them (notwithstanding how clearly they held to one God when that context was clear). Bottom line: among these issues, I don't see the sort of consistency in usage and clear context to use this point as a very strong evidence that Jesus is actually Yahweh (aside from the problems that poses the various Trinity theories as well -- if Yahweh is the Father, then pretty much only modalists believe Jesus actually is the Father).

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Homer
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Re: Who is Our Savior?

Post by Homer » Mon May 10, 2021 11:18 am

Darin,

Perhaps "garbage" is too harsh but I was so disappointed by the article that I didn't read it all. Much of what was initially brought up was pointless, no comparison to Christ.

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Re: Who is Our Savior?

Post by commonsense » Mon May 10, 2021 12:01 pm

.
Homer wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:30 am
Did you know that throughout the Old Testament God is Lord and throughout the New Testament Jesus is Lord except where the Old Testament is quoted? Jesus is both Savior and Lord.
Homer, God is Lord who also raises up Lords( rulers) through the power of his Holy Spirit.
Abraham, Moses, David etc. were all rulers.

"And he who overcomes, and keeps my works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations."

"Those who are led by the Spirit are sons of God. And if the Holy Spirit dwells in you then you are a co-heir."

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Re: Who is Our Savior?

Post by darinhouston » Mon May 10, 2021 3:51 pm

Homer wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 11:18 am
Darin,

Perhaps "garbage" is too harsh but I was so disappointed by the article that I didn't read it all. Much of what was initially brought up was pointless, no comparison to Christ.
Have you since read it ? Insisting its context is limited to Jesus seems a bit "synchronistic." I think this article fairly takes it within the context in which it was written. Limiting or applying it specially as a Trinitarian proof-text is the sort of thing I think would be an apostolic prerogative.

Good excerpt...

***
"When we realize Jesus is God's salvation, it becomes quite clear that God raised up Jesus to be Savior of the world and in this manner there is no Savior apart from God. There is no Savior apart from God because it is God who raises up saviors to save his people from this or that. He raised up Jesus to save Israel from their sins. And indeed, we read in the New Testament that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. The Father abiding in Jesus did the works (John 14:10). It was all God the Father's doing."
***

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Re: Who is Our Savior?

Post by Paidion » Mon May 10, 2021 3:54 pm

In what sense is Jesus the son of God?
I get the impression that Darin thinks that he is the son of God because he was born without a human father, that because his mother Mary, who was a virgin gave him birth, he is the son of God.

But the earliest Christians taught that the first act of God was the begetting of the Son.

Ignatius, born around A.D. 30 wrote in his letter to the Ephesians, Chapter XI these words concerning Christ:

..Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the virgin, Mary...

Justin Martyr, born around A.D. 110

..being begotten in a peculiar manner Word and Power by Him, and having afterwards become man through the Virgin, as we have learned from the memoirs. Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho Ch. 105 (underling mine for emphasis)

Justin also compared the begetting of the Son to a small fire that has been started from a large fire. The small fire is of the same essence as the large fire, but yet is a different fire.

Jesus himself indicated that he existed before Abraham:

Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:56-58 ESV)
Paidion

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Re: Who is Our Savior?

Post by darinhouston » Mon May 10, 2021 4:03 pm

I think he is the Son of God because the Spirit impregnated Mary and he had no earthly biological father and because God expressly called him His son. Begetting is part of that, though exactly what is in view with his "begetting" is not all that clear. We've discussed the John 8 passage before, of course, and the pre-existent interpretation isn't the only reasonable interpretation.

To be fair, I am not completely clear on pre-existence - to me, it's the biggest challenge in this debate. The verses suggesting pre-existence are truly hard. But, even Arius and other non-trinitarians believed in pre-existence as the Son, but they (along with many of the early Church Fathers) were not Trinitarian in the modern sense of eternal co-equal godhead. Most had some flavor of theology that Jesus was less than eternal and was in some way an "inferior" god to Yahweh as a "begotten" spirit (somewhat similar to what I think you believe). And a lot in between. For others to insist there was any true consensus of a "Chalcedonian" view or even fully Nicene view in the first couple of centuries simply demonstrates ignorance.

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