God as Mediator

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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God as Mediator

Post by darinhouston » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:09 am

Here's another topic that is frequently stated as fact that deserves full consideration and its own topic. It is often said that God Himself was the mediator between Himself and mankind and it is further stated that mankind was not qualified to mediate.

First thing worth discussing since it's an underlying presupposition -- how is it (rationally) that God actually mediates between himself and mankind? That seems nonsensical and contrary to basic logic. Doesn't a mediator require a "third" entity separate from the two parties being mediated? He could be like God or like man, but couldn't be God Himself or He couldn't be a mediator. This seems like pretty basic common sense.

Isaiah 59:15-16ff is often pointed to...

"16 He saw that there was no man,
and wondered that there was no one to intercede;
then his own arm brought him salvation,
and his righteousness upheld him.
17 He put on righteousness as a breastplate,
and a helmet of salvation on his head;
he put on garments of vengeance for clothing,
and wrapped himself in zeal as a cloak."


However, God being the source of the intercessor/redeemer and being said to "bring salvation" doesn't mean he "was" the man Jesus any more than his bringing vengeance in the OT was God actually "being" the invading armies. He provided the way, it was all according to his plan and purpose, but it goes too far to read this passage as implying God was the mediator himself. Besides, what implications follow from God having to put on the helmet of salvation and so forth?

Let's look at a few verses about the redeemer/intercessor ...

1 Timothy 2:5 is about as clear a passage in this context as it gets - "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." The clear indication seems to be that he wasn't God, but he was a man and we know from other passages that what qualified him to be mediator was his perfection and sinlessness. One who could stand in the same nature as Adam but do what Adam failed to do.

Hebrews 8:6 further tells us that Christ obtained his ministry - not that it was inherent in his nature as God.

Matthew 28:18 further tells us that all authority in heaven and on earth was given to Christ, not that it was inherent in his nature as God.

John 17:3 tells us that Jesus Christ is not the only true God but "another" whom was sent. Not that Jesus was distinct just from the Father, but from the true God. "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." Ephesians 4:6 further makes clear that it is the Father who is the One God. "One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

Hebrews 4:15 tells us that our High Priest is like us -- "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin." God cannot be tempted. James 1:13 makes clear that God cannot be tempted. "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil."

Hebrews 7:25 clearly distinguishes the intercessor from the God to whom we are drawn near. "Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them."

Ephesians 2:18 tells us that it is through Christ we have access to the Father. Implicit in this passage is that the Father is the one which the intercessor is reuniting us with (in other words, God). This is consistent with so many passages stating that the Father is the one true God and that Jesus is the path through which we get to Him. "For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father."

2 Corinthians 5:19 " ... God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself." If God was “in Christ,” doesn’t that necessarily assume/imply that God is distinct from Christ?

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Paidion
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Re: God as Mediator

Post by Paidion » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:11 pm

Yes, Jesus, born from Mary,was a man. But He was also the divine Son of God, as no other man ever was, "begotten before all ages" as the early Christians affirmed.
Paidion

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darinhouston
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Re: God as Mediator

Post by darinhouston » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:47 pm

Paidion wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:11 pm
Yes, Jesus, born from Mary,was a man. But He was also the divine Son of God, as no other man ever was, "begotten before all ages" as the early Christians affirmed.
Well, I guess I'm trying to stick with scripture here (and arguments about what scriptural passages mean, of course).

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Homer
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Re: God as Mediator

Post by Homer » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:49 am

Here's another topic that is frequently stated as fact that deserves full consideration and its own topic. It is often said that God Himself was the mediator between Himself and mankind and it is further stated that mankind was not qualified to mediate.
I do not think any man could possibly represent God as a mediator. I believe our understanding of God's regard for the seriousness of sin is sorely deficient. God basically turned the world upside down because of the sin of Adam and Eve. What must he think of the sins of Hitler? How can a mere man understand the incomprehensible Father's point of view?
First thing worth discussing since it's an underlying presupposition -- how is it (rationally) that God actually mediates between himself and mankind? That seems nonsensical and contrary to basic logic. Doesn't a mediator require a "third" entity separate from the two parties being mediated? He could be like God or like man, but couldn't be God Himself or He couldn't be a mediator. This seems like pretty basic common sense.
But this is no problem for the trinitarian point of view:

Philippians 2:5-7
New American Standard Bible
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men.


Now we have one who is deity and man combined. One who has been tempted in every way as humans are. Only by being possessed of divinity and humanity could He understand the claims of the One and the needs of the beggar. Only He could fully see the requirements of justice and the need for mercy. The perfect mediator.

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darinhouston
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Re: God as Mediator

Post by darinhouston » Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:01 am

Homer wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:49 am
I do not think any man could possibly represent God as a mediator.
I understand that's the conventional evangelical position, but that's a mere assumption and scripture suggests otherwise.
Homer wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:49 am
I believe our understanding of God's regard for the seriousness of sin is sorely deficient. God basically turned the world upside down because of the sin of Adam and Eve. What must he think of the sins of Hitler? How can a mere man understand the incomprehensible Father's point of view?
I agree as to seriousness of sin, but Jesus didn't have to understand the Father's point of view completely - he was obedient and completely surrendered to the Spirit and whatever understanding was revealed to him. He made that clear that this was where he was coming from numerous times.
Homer wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:49 am
But this is no problem for the trinitarian point of view:

Philippians 2:5-7
New American Standard Bible
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men.

Now we have one who is deity and man combined. One who has been tempted in every way as humans are. Only by being possessed of divinity and humanity could He understand the claims of the One and the needs of the beggar. Only He could fully see the requirements of justice and the need for mercy. The perfect mediator.
This creates its own philosophical problems and is a bizarre position (even if conventional orthodox teaching). We've discussed alternative interpretations of the Phil passage many times.

But, I do ask you - as to "turning the world upside down" - do you believe God planned Jesus' sacrifice "from the beginning"? Was the Fall a surprise to Him? Wasn't this exactly the plan all along? I do think that's much of what John 1:1 is getting at.

commonsense
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Re: God as Mediator

Post by commonsense » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:29 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:01 am
I understand that's the conventional evangelical position, but that's a mere assumption and scripture suggests otherwise.
I agree. The people of God are mediators. Any person in whom the Holy Spirit dwells and who has come to the wisdom and knowledge God through experience has the ability to be a mediator. God works through us and we work through Him.

"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness."
When your land becomes a desolation, then you'll know that I am God."

The fall is no surprise to anyone who has come to know the ways of God.
We can see when our kids are headed in the wrong direction. We know this because we've been there done that, or we've seen the results in other people's lives.

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Paidion
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Re: God as Mediator

Post by Paidion » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:45 pm

The earliest Christians taught that the first act of God was the begetting of the Son. So they said that Jesus was the only begotten God, for God the Father was unbegotten.

Ignatius, born around A.D. 30 wrote in his letter to the Ephesians, Chapter XI these words concerning Christ:

..Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the virgin, Mary...


Justin Martyr, born around A.D. 110

...being begotten in a peculiar manner Word and Power by Him, and having afterwards become man through the Virgin, as we have learned from the memoirs. (Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho Ch. 105)

Justin also compared the begetting of the Son to a small fire that has been started from a large fire. The small fire is of the same essence as the large fire, but yet is a different fire.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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