Colossians 1:16 ("By Him all things were created")

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
Post Reply
User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Colossians 1:16 ("By Him all things were created")

Post by darinhouston » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:46 am

This passage was raised in another topic and it's probably worth its own discussion.

This is another pretty well worn debate and (like so many of these proof-texts) even many Trinitarians would agree that it goes too far to use this to prove Jesus was the Almighty Creator God. But, this appears (yet again) to turn at least in part on another translation issue - what does "en auto" mean?

This article (https://onegodworship.com/is-jesus-the- ... ns-115-18/) is pretty good, but to summarize it, causation isn't in view, but "purpose." The better translation consistent with other scripture is that all things were created "in Him" which is not the same thing as saying "by Him." That is, because of him or for his sake, or with him in view or with him in intention. All things on earth were made with him in mind and for his coming.

The article goes further to discuss Paul's context and literary method which makes clear what is meant isn't Jesus' literal creation of the physical universe and it also explains that the top elf "all things" which are in view are enumerated by Paul as Kingdom things such as thrones, dominions, rulers and authorities and that "before all things" deals with pre-eminence and not necessarily pre-existence.

[Anticipating some here who might criticize use of secondary sources -- it is an efficient way to share a well thought out response and not an authority per se. It is the "reasoning" in the article which is useful and which should be addressed. For those who think they are in a better position because they are just "sticking to the scripture," I think they are naive and don't appreciate the centuries and millennia of articles and commentaries and councils and ecclesiastical authorities which have influenced their positions and interpretations -- so, when they say they are "just" relying on Scripture, they're simply mistaken and are relying just as much on other influences as they would criticize others for doing - even if they don't know it or won't admit it.]

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Colossians 1:16 ("By Him all things were created")

Post by Homer » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:53 am

Darin,

It seems to me, taken at face value, (I realize things in scripture can not always be taken at face value) the cumulative weight of these passages is very difficult to overcome for the Unitarian position.

John 1:3
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:2
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

The unsearchableness of God, stated in scripture, seems obviously true, The pre-incarnate Christ is said to be "the Word" and all things are said to have been spoken into existence. Perhaps that is where we should leave it.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Colossians 1:16 ("By Him all things were created")

Post by darinhouston » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:53 am

We'd have to delve into each but perhaps they all mean the same thing and suffer from the same translation and contextual issues. But, I don't think as a general matter, cumulative ambiguity yields certainty. Each of these have their own context of course, but if we're talking of cumulative value - the vast majority of statements about God are about his uniqueness as a single God and His oneness and identifying Him with the Father while distinguishing Christ. So, perhaps it's in the beholder, but I think the balance of cumulative inferences is on the unitarian side of the balance.

That said, I do think this is likely why so many early Christians (even Arians) struggled with or supported pre-existence - but, that still didn't lead most of them to conclude that Jesus was a part of a complex trinitarian eternal and equal Almighty plural unity (yet collectively still one Yahweh).

But, one of these statements you made is consistently made but is imprecise -- scripture doesn't actually say that the pre-incarnate Christ "was" the Word (as in shared identity with the Word) but that there was a pre-incarnate "Word" that became embodied in Christ. There is significant debate about what the Logos refers to and great gaps in inference to fill in between those two statements and if we're letting scripture stop where it is clearly stated, that's an important distinction.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Colossians 1:16 ("By Him all things were created")

Post by darinhouston » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:33 pm

This is an interesting commentary (from the Revised English Version)...
...because in connection with him all things were created in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible—whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him,...
“in connection with him.” The Greek reads en autō (ἐν αὐτῷ, “in him”) meaning “in Christ.” God was the creator, and He created “in Christ,” or as it can be better understood, “in connection with Christ.” The exact connection in the creation has to be defined by the scope of Scripture, and we can see from the subjects here in Colossians 1 and the specific vocabulary that is used that this “creation” is the new creation and new order that occurred after Jesus ascended into heaven. Also, to fully understand what this section of Scripture is saying, we need to know that the phrase “in him” is a common Greek expression in Paul’s writings, occurring some 35 times, and is especially common in the epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians where Paul regularly uses it to describe God’s actions as being brought about “in him” or “in Christ.” Many of the times “in Christ” is used the sense of the Greek preposition en (meaning “in”) is locative and it refers to the sphere in which God has accomplished certain things. The concept of “in” referring to a sphere of relationship or influence can be strange to English speakers because we are used to people being “in” a place like a room, but are not used to being “in” a person like Jesus, nevertheless, being “in Christ” is common in the Church Epistles. Examples of this sense of en are: the believer is chosen “in him [Christ]” (Eph. 1:4), the sacred secret that God planned beforehand is “in him (Christ)” (Eph 1:9), and God’s creation of “one new man” composed of Jew and Gentile is “in him (Christ)” (Eph. 2:15).

Some of the locative occurrences can be understood better as meaning “in union with” such as how believers have received all spiritual blessings “in Christ” (Eph. 1:3), both Jews and Gentiles are equal heirs of God’s covenant promises “in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 3:6), or how believers have received the fullness of God by being “in him (Christ)” (Col. 2:10).

However, another sense of the locative use of en can mean “in connection with,” as is the case here in Colossians 1:16. This is different than being “in union with” Christ because the object stands in a certain “connection with” or “relationship with” Christ rather than being “united with” Christ. Examples of this second locative sense are God’s calling that is “in Christ Jesus” (Phil. 3:14), the freedom believers have “in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 2:4), and the will of God for the holy ones that is “in Christ Jesus” (1 Thess. 5:18).

Here in Colossians 1:16, Paul is stating that Christ is the “sphere” within which God has performed the work of creation (see F. F. Bruce, Colossians, Philemon, and Ephesians [NICNT], p. 61). This “creation” is not referring to Genesis 1 but rather the work of creation that is described in the following clause of the verse (i.e., thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities). The sphere within which these things have been created “in Christ” is that they have been created “in connection with” who Christ is, the plan of redemption that culminated in Christ’s death and resurrection, the realities of new creation, the Body of Christ, of which he is the head, and in relation to Christ himself as the firstborn from the dead. All of God’s secret will, counsels, and activities in creating thrones and dominions and positions of rule and authority are all centered on and have their basis in Jesus, the Christ. His lordship as the risen Anointed One is the framework within which all these realities have been created. Nothing in the world that God is restoring has been created apart from who Christ is as the king and head over all things.

Here in Colossians 1:16, as in many other places in Paul, the Greek phrase en autō (ἐν αὐτῷ) means “in him,” “in connection with him,” and is not using the en as an instrumental dative to mean “by him.” The things were created “through him and for him,” so he cannot both be the creator and have the creation made “through him.” Besides that, the Greek verb translated by the phrase “were created” early in the verse is a passive verb, whereas if Christ was the creator and the creation made “by him,” the verb would be active. God is the creator, and he created “in connection with” His Son, Jesus Christ (cp. Peter O’Brien, Word Biblical Commentary).

“all things were created.” The Greek verb translated “created” is ktizō (#2936 κτίζω), and it means to create. But this verse is not referring to God creating the world in the beginning. It is referring to His creating the positions of authority that are needed to run the Church, which started on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2). The Bible describes both the physical and spiritual realities that God created by the phrase, “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.”

Many people think that because Colossians 1:16 says, “For by him all things were created” that the verse is speaking of the original creation of the universe but that is not the case. To discover what this verse is saying, we must read the entire verse with an understanding of the usage of the words in the verse and also any figures of speech involved. The study of legitimate figures of speech is quite demanding and academically rigorous, and the best work we know of was done in 1898 by E. W. Bullinger, titled Figures of Speech Used in the Bible.

When the word “all” (or “every” or “everything”) is used, it is often used in a limited sense. For example, when Absalom was holding a council against his father, David, 2 Samuel 17:14 says that “all the men of Israel” agreed on advice that was given. “All” the men of Israel were not there and did not all agree, but the verse uses “all” in its limited sense, meaning, “all” who were there, and that limited group all agreed. Another example is Jeremiah 26:8, which says that “all the people” seized Jeremiah to put him to death, but the context makes it very clear that “all the people” were not even present. Again, “all” is being used in a limited sense. The Bible says that Christians “know all things” (1 John 2:20), but that does not mean we know everything there is to know. The point is that whenever we read the word “all,” we must determine whether it is being used in the wide sense of “all in the universe,” or in the narrow sense of “all in a certain context.” When Colossians 1:16 says “all things were created by him,” we know from both the context and the scope of Scripture that “all” is being used in a limited sense.

Another thing we must understand in order to correctly interpret Colossians 1:16 is the figure of speech called “encircling.” Bullinger says that the Greeks called this figure of speech epanadiplosis, while the Romans labeled it inclusio, and he gives several pages of biblical examples of this figure. To understand the “encircling,” we must note that the phrase “all things were created” occurs at both the beginning and end of the verse, encircling the list of created things. The things that God created as per this verse are not rocks, trees, birds and animals, but are “thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities,” and these are the authorities and positions that were needed to run the Church. By surrounding the list of thrones, lordships, etc., with the word “create,” the figure of speech epanadiplosis (“encircling”) helps us to identify the proper context of “all things,” and shows us that it is the narrower sense of the word “all” that is being used in the verse.

If Colossians 1:16 was referring to God creating the universe in the beginning of time, we should expect it to reflect something like the wording of Genesis 1:1, and mention the heavens and the earth, or at least innumerate some of the common things that we associate with that creation. Instead we find in this verse a list of both angelic and human positions of authority. When the Church started on Pentecost, it needed a structure to run in a godly fashion, and that structure consisted of spiritual beings and people in positions of authority, and God, “in connection with Christ” created those positions.

“thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.” These are some of the authorities in the spiritual world and physical world that Jesus needed to create in order to run his church.

“thrones.” The Greek is “thrones,” the plural of thronos (#2362 θρόνος). Lightfoot writes: In all systems alike these ‘thrones’ belong to the highest grade of angelic beings, whose place is in the presence of God” (Lightfoot; St. Paul’s Epistles). We agree with Lightfoot that these “thrones” (likely a metonymy for those beings who sit on the thrones) are a high order of angelic beings, and the position was created by Christ for his Church.

“dominions.” The Greek kuriotēs (#2963 κυριότης) is from the word kurios (“lord”), which is the same word for “lord” in the phrase, “the Lord Jesus Christ.” It refers to those who have a position that is above or over others. According to the meaning of the word and its close association with the preceding word “thrones,” it is likely that these “dominions” refer to very powerful spirit beings who have high positions in God’s kingdom.

“rulers or authorities.” The Greek is archē (#746 ἀρχή) and exousia (#1849 ἐξουσία). The word archē refers to one who is first, a leader or ruler, while exousia refers to “authority.” These two words appear together ten times in the New Testament (Luke 12:11; 20:20; 1 Cor. 15:24; Eph. 1:21; 3:10; 6:12; Col. 1:16; 2:10, 15; Titus 3:1). Sometimes they clearly refer to earthly powers (Luke 12:11; Titus 3:1); in others they refer to spiritual powers (Eph. 6:12). Jesus created positions of authority in the Church in both the spiritual and physical realm. The apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers in the Church are part of the physical realm and the human authority structure. Although it could be argued that in this verse “rulers or authorities” only refer to angelic rulers and were created “in the beginning,” that is an interpretation. It could just as easily be argued that in this verse the meaning, or part of the meaning, of these words refers to the human authorities in the Church, and that absolutely precludes Jesus creating “in the beginning,” because Church authorities did not exist back then.

“have been created.” As was pointed out just above, the word “create,” ktizō (#2936 κτίζω), surrounds and thus defines the things that Jesus created to properly order his Body, the Church. It is noteworthy, however, that the use of ktizō at the beginning of the verse is in the aorist tense, indicating that there was a specific point in time when thrones, lordships, rulers, and authorities were created. At the end of the verse, however, the verb ktizō occurs in the perfect tense, indicating that the things that were once created are still in existence. Thus we know that the positions of authority that brings order to the Body of Christ were created at a point in time (relatively shortly after his resurrection), and still continue to this day.

“through him and for him.” The Greek phrase is dia autou kai eis auton (δι᾽ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν) where the two Greek prepositions are dia (#1223 διά) and eis (#1519 εἰς) are joined by the coordinating conjunction kai (“and”). What is the connection with Christ? “Through him and for him” explicates the locative sense of the preposition en at the beginning of the verse (cp. Barth and Blanke, Colossians [ABD], 197-98).

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Colossians 1:16 ("By Him all things were created")

Post by darinhouston » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:43 pm

Some translation commentary which might be of interest from a non-trinitarian translation (REV)
John 1:3
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
"All things came into being through it, and apart from it nothing came into being that has come into being."

“All things were made through it.” The logos is an “it,” not a “him.” God made everything through and according to His logos, His plan and purpose, and with wisdom. The logos was God’s plan and purpose, especially as it was put into action (see commentary on John 1:1). Furthermore, it was integrally tied together with His wisdom (see commentary on John 1:2).

To understand one reason why most English versions say “him” but others say “it,” we must understand how pronouns are used in languages such as Greek. Unlike English, but like many languages, including Spanish, French, German, Latin, and Hebrew, the Greek language assigns a gender to nouns. Then, grammatically, the gender of any pronoun must match the gender of the associated noun. The gender assignment of nouns happened in ancient antiquity, and often there seems to be no reason why a noun has the gender assigned to it that it does.

In French, for example, a table is feminine, la table, while a desk is masculine, le bureau. Thus a strictly literal translation of a French sentence with nouns and matching pronouns might be, “I like the table, she is just right for the room, but I do not like the desk, he is too big.” In correctly translating from French to English, however, we would never translate the English as, “the table, she,” or “the desk, he.” Not only is it improper English, it misses the point. Even the French people do not think of tables and desks as being masculine or feminine. The gender of the nouns is simply a part of the language that has come down through the ages.

Furthermore, no one would ever insist that a table or desk was a person just because it had a masculine or feminine pronoun associated with it. Good English translators recognize that even though a noun is assigned a gender in another language and the associated pronoun follows the gender of the noun, their job is to bring the meaning of the original into English, not introduce confusion into the English translation. Hence, someone translating from French to English would use the English designation “it” for the table and the desk, in spite of the fact that the original French language called them “she” and “he.”

What is true in the examples from the French language is true in any language that assigns a gender to nouns and then uses pronouns with that same gender. For example, the Greek word for “lamp” is luchnos, a masculine noun, and therefore proper grammar dictates that any pronoun associated with it is masculine. Thus, if the Greek text of Matthew 5:15 were translated literally, it would read, “Nor do they light a lamp and place him under the bushel.” However, every English version we checked said, “it,” as proper English dictates.

The same grammatical rule that the pronoun must agree with the noun is followed when the noun is feminine. According to the literal Greek text, Christ told his disciples that when they entered a “city” (polin; a feminine noun) or “village” (kome; a feminine noun), they should “find out who in her is worthy” (Matt. 10:11; literally translated). The English versions correctly read, “it” instead of “her.” When translating from another language into English, we have to use the English language properly. Students learning Greek, Hebrew, Spanish, French, German, etc., quickly discover that one of the difficult things about learning the language is memorizing the gender of each noun—something we do not have in the English language.

Once we clearly understand the gender of a pronoun is determined by the gender of the noun, we can see why one cannot build a doctrine on the gender of a noun and it’s agreeing pronoun. Only confusion would result from that kind of erroneous exegesis. In John 1:3, the pronoun autou is masculine so it agrees grammatically with the masculine noun logos. Most Trinitarians believe that the logos refers to Jesus Christ, so to them the translation “him” is proper. However, we assert that the logos is not a person, but the plan or purpose of God, and is therefore an “it.”

Historically, Trinitarians have thought of the logos as Jesus Christ, so they have translated the pronoun as “him,” but not every version does that. The first English translation from the Greek text was done by William Tyndale (1494-1536; John Wycliffe translated into English earlier, but used the Latin as his base text). He translated the pronoun as “it,” not “him.” In 1537, the Matthew’s Bible, translated by John Rogers using the pseudonym “Thomas Matthews,” used “it,” not “him.” In 1539, the Great Bible, a revision of Matthew’s Bible, had “it.” This was important because the translation was overseen by Miles Coverdale, and in the Coverdale Bible of 1535, done some years earlier and based on the Latin, Coverdale used “him,” not “it,” but in this later version he apparently switched his preference and used “it.” When Queen Mary forbade the printing of the English Bible, translation moved to Geneva, and the Geneva Bible of 1560 became the household Bible of the English-speaking people. It was the Bible used by Shakespeare, as well as the Puritans who settled New England. Under Queen Elizabeth the English Bible was once again printed in Great Britain, and the Bishop’s Bible was published in 1568. It used “it,” not “him” in John 1:3-4, but was never popular with the people. The major change came with the King James Bible, which used “him,” not “it” in the opening of John, and most English versions since then have done the same. Nevertheless, we should be aware that the translation “it” has good literary foundation and a solid Christian history. [For translating the gift of holy spirit as an “it,” see commentary on John 14:17].

Although we today should think of the logos as an “it” for clarity, we need to acknowledge that the ancient people personified the concept of the logos and spoke of it as if it was a person, even though they did not believe it was a person. This seems strange to us, but it was perfectly natural for the ancients to use the figure of speech personification to express many concepts (for more on the figure personification, see commentary on Proverbs 1:20, “Wisdom”). Nevertheless, for us today it makes the text clearer if we say that God had a plan, and God worked through it (not, “him”) to restore the world to Himself.
John 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
"It was in the world, and the world came into being through it, and the world did not know it."

“and the world was made through it.” John 1:10 shows that the logos, God’s express purpose and plan was in the world, and it also repeats in a different way what had been stated in John 1:3, that it was through the logos that God made the world. However, John 1:10 adds that the world did not know the logos and thus by implication the world did not know God.

That John 1:10 restates what John 1:3 says brings this section of John to a close in a kind of inclusio, wrapping John 1:1-10 together and expressing what God did via the logos. John 1:11 changes subjects, and although we are to understand that it is still God working, but now through Christ and not through the logos, it seems apparent that the subject changes from the logos to Christ. Although we modern English readers could wish for a clearer presentation of what is happening in the text, given the poetic style of what John is writing, we can gain sufficient clarity from the scope of Scripture.

Some scholars think the phrase, “the world was made by him,” is a reference to the new creation only that is being made by Christ (cp. Col. 1:15-20 and Heb. 1:1,10), but that does not seem as likely an explanation as John 1:10 is highlighting what verse 3 said. For that alternative explanation, see the Racovian Catechism pp. 89-91
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
"yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him."

“one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him.” This verse clearly distinguishes between Jesus and God. There is one God and Father, and there is one man, Jesus, who is our “Lord.” This verse shows how God and Jesus work in unity to get the Church what it needs. God gave Jesus all authority and made him head over the Church, so now we get what we need “through” Jesus.

Some Trinitarians say that this verse supports the doctrine of the Trinity because it says that all things came through Jesus Christ. But what the verse actually says is that all things came “from” God, “through” Jesus. That stands in contradiction to Trinitarian doctrine because it places Jesus in a subordinate role to God. According to this verse, Jesus is not “co-equal’ with the Father; the Father is “God” and the ultimate source of all things, and Jesus is not called “God.”

The context is the key to understanding what the phrase “all things came through him” means. There is no mention in either the immediate or the remote context about the creation of the world such that the “all things” refers to the original creation of Genesis. This verse is speaking of the Church. God provided all things for the Church via Jesus Christ.

The whole book of 1 Corinthians is taken up with Church issues, and Paul starts 1 Cor. 8:6 with “to us,” i.e., to Christians. 1 Corinthians 8:4-5 had said that even though there were “so called” gods, for us “there is no God but one.” The Roman world was polytheistic, and people were used to having different “gods” and different “lords” provide different things in different ways. As the various gods provided things, often those provisions would be mediated and distributed to the people through “lords,” lesser gods or people, such as the priests. That was a major reason the Romans had so many temples and shrines to the different gods and worshipped them all—to curry as much of their favor as possible. But Paul challenged that commonly-accepted practice, and boldly stated that there was only one God “from whom are all things,” and only one Lord “through whom are all things.”

The very next two verses, 1 Cor 8:7-8, have a practical application of the truth that there is only one God who provides everything for us through Jesus Christ. Since “no idol in the world really exists,” (1 Cor 8:4), then they do not really provide the food that is sacrificed to them and cannot affect it for better or worse. Thus, for the Church, there are no laws against eating food sacrificed to idols. Verse 1 Cor 8:8 says, “But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.” However, this revelation was new for the Church. The Old Testament believers did not have this freedom. They had dozens of food laws, and many people who had converted to Christianity still could not eat food with a clear conscience if it had been offered to an idol—even though the idol was nothing and the source of the blessing was God working through Jesus Christ. Hopefully though, by explaining the situation, more Christians would become free in their conscience and not be bound by old regulations.

By wording the verse the way he does and saying there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus, Paul pens this verse in a way that clearly stands against the Trinity. If the Trinity really existed, then this verse would have been the perfect place to say so, and have something such as, “for us there is only one God made up of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost,” or something similar. There is no good reason that the verse would be written in a way that is so clearly non-Trinitarian, calling the Father, “God,” and Jesus, “Lord,” if the Trinity existed. Furthermore, the logical reason that this verse is worded the way it is and the reason that the Bible does not make a clear statement about the Trinity, here or anyplace else, is that there is no Trinity. There is, as this verse says, “one God” and “one Lord, Jesus Christ.” [For more discussion on this verse, see J. S. Hyndman, Lectures on The Principles of Unitarianism, pp. 58-63; Patrick Navas, Divine Truth or Human Tradition, pp. 42-45. For more information on Jesus being the fully human Son of God and not being “God the Son,” see Appendix 10, “Jesus is the Son of God, Not God the Son.” For more on “the Holy Spirit” being one of the designations for God the Father and “the holy spirit” being the gift of God’s nature, see Appendix 11, “What is the Holy Spirit?”].
Hebrews 1:2
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
"...has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he has given form to the ages,..."

“ages.” The Greek word is the plural of aiōn (#165 αἰών ) and means “ages.” This verse is referring to the “ages,” not the “world.” Vine’s Lexicon has, “an age, a period of time, marked in the N.T. usage by spiritual or moral characteristics, is sometimes translated ‘world;’ the R.V. margin always has ‘age.’” Bullinger’s Critical Lexicon (under “world”) has: “Aion [age], from ao, aemi, to blow, to breathe. Aion denoted originally the life which hastes away in the breathing of our breath, life as transitory; then the course of life, time of life, life in its temporal form. Then, the space of a human life, an age, or generation in respect of duration. The time lived or to be lived by men, time as moving, historical time as well as eternity. Aion always includes a reference to the filling of time.”

Since most translators are Trinitarian and think that Jesus was the one who made the original heavens and earth, they translate “ages” as “world,” or even “universe” in this verse. There are other Greek words that mean “world,” such as kosmos and oikoumene, and when the Devil tempted Jesus by showing him all the kingdoms of the “world,” these words are used. In Hebrews 1:2 aiōn means “ages,” and should be translated that way.

Trinitarians use Hebrews 1:2 to try to prove that Jesus Christ created the world as we know it, but the context of the verse shows that cannot be the correct interpretation. Heb. 1:1-2 show that God spoke through Jesus “in these last days,” whereas God had spoken “in the past” in various other ways. If indeed it were through Jesus that the physical world was created, then one of the ways that God spoke in the past was through Jesus. But that would contradict the whole point of the verse, which is saying that God spoke in other ways in the past, but “in these last days” is speaking through the Son.

Since Heb. 1:1-2 say that it was “God” who spoke through prophets and through His Son, it is clear that God is the prime mover and thus different from the Son. These verses show that the Son is subordinate to God and, as a “mouthpiece” for God, is compared to the prophets.

The fact that God appointed the Son to be “heir” shows that God and the Son are not equal. For the Son to be the “heir” means that there was a time when he was not the owner. The word “heir” is a common one and, because death and inheritance are a part of every culture, it occurs in all the biblical languages. Any dictionary will show that an heir is one who inherits, succeeds or receives an estate, rank, title or office of another. By definition, you cannot be an heir if you are already the owner. No one in history ever wrote a will that said, “My heir and the inheritor of my estate is…ME!” If Christ is God, then he cannot be “heir.” The only way he can be an heir is by not being the original owner. That Christ is an “heir” is inconsistent with Trinitarian doctrine, which states that Christ is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father. If Christ were God, then he was part owner all along, and thus is not the “heir” at all. These verses teach that God is the original owner, and will give all things to His heir, Jesus Christ. It is obvious from the wording of these first two verses that the author of Hebrews does not consider Christ to be God.

Since aionas means “ages” and not “world,” it is fair to ask in what sense God has given form to the ages through Jesus. The Greek word from which “given form” is translated is poieō, a word with very many meanings. Alone, and in combination with other words, it is translated more than 100 different ways in the NIV. Some of the ways poieō is translated are: accomplish, acted, appointed, are, be, bear, began, been, bring, carry out, cause, committed, consider, do, earned, exercise, formed, gain, give, judge, kept, made, obey, performed, preparing, produce, provide, put into practice, reached, spend, stayed, treated, was, win, work, wrote, and yielded. Although most people read poieo in Hebrews 1:2 as referring to the original creation, it does not have to mean that at all. The context dictates that the “ages” being referred to are the ages after Christ’s resurrection. In Heb. 1:2, Christ became heir after his resurrection. In Heb. 1:3, he then sat at God’s right hand after his resurrection. Heb. 1:5-6 also refer to the resurrection. The context makes it clear that God was not speaking through His Son in the past, but that He has spoken “in these last days” through His Son, and “given form to” the ages through him. For more information see, One God & One Lord.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Colossians 1:16 ("By Him all things were created")

Post by Paidion » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:09 pm

In the vast majority of cases, the Greek word "εν" (en) means "in"). However, in a few cases, it appears to mean "by":

But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. (Matthew 5:34,35 ESV)
(Bolding mine)

The ESV translated the Greek word "εν" as "by" in the following verse:

For by him all things were created...(Colossians 1:16 ESV)


Yes, in this verse the ESV has translated "εν" as "by". Or should it be translated as "in"? A significant number of translations render the word as "in". I think it should be translated as "in". For it is clear that the Father is the creator, not the Son.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

commonsense
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:25 pm

Re: Colossians 1:16 ("By Him all things were created")

Post by commonsense » Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:23 am

I think this is a very good topic. To say that all things are created by God and for God and through God makes no sense. We know that ALL things aren't created by God or Jesus. Man creates some pretty nasty stuff. But man also creates good things too. I think what this verse may be talking about is love. " God is Love." And the word/ commandment is to love God and love others as ourselves. Going back to Genesis, God is creating the earth, not for Himself, but for all of His creatures and especially as a home for mankind, providing all the things necessary for our existence. Speaking from my own standpoint, I don't create things for myself. Well, maybe I do in some ways. I love the gifts that God has given me and I use these gifts to bring joy to others as well as myself. Those who love God, create through love as well, even thrones and dominions(habitations). You could say that Jesus was "Love others as yourself.", in the flesh.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Colossians 1:16 ("By Him all things were created")

Post by Paidion » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:46 pm

...for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created...(RSV and NRSV)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Colossians 1:16 ("By Him all things were created")

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:11 pm

commonsense wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:23 am
I think this is a very good topic. To say that all things are created by God and for God and through God makes no sense. We know that ALL things aren't created by God or Jesus. Man creates some pretty nasty stuff. But man also creates good things too. I think what this verse may be talking about is love. " God is Love." And the word/ commandment is to love God and love others as ourselves. Going back to Genesis, God is creating the earth, not for Himself, but for all of His creatures and especially as a home for mankind, providing all the things necessary for our existence. Speaking from my own standpoint, I don't create things for myself. Well, maybe I do in some ways. I love the gifts that God has given me and I use these gifts to bring joy to others as well as myself. Those who love God, create through love as well, even thrones and dominions(habitations). You could say that Jesus was "Love others as yourself.", in the flesh.
Dwight - Can you please tell me what thing was not created by God?

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Colossians 1:16 ("By Him all things were created")

Post by Paidion » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:34 pm

Evil was not created by God.

No one has suggested that any form of physical matter was not created by God.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Post Reply

Return to “Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology”