Page 19 of 89
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:08 pm
by Paidion
Dwight you wrote:God is Your throne? That doesn't even make sense.
AH BUT IT DOES!
According to Wikipedia:
"Throne" in an abstract sense can also refer to the monarchy.
Even in our day, in countries that have a king or a queen, someone may say, "Are you going to obey the throne, or do your own thing?"
Yes, "God is your throne" means "God is your authority."
God speaking to His Son, said that He, God Himself, is His Son's authority.
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:58 am
by dwight92070
Then He's no higher than the angels, because God was their authority too, which, again, does not fit into the context of what was just said: ...whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
Nor does it fit with what is said after: "You, LORD, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands ..." (In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth.)
God, the Father, is well pleased to equate His Son with Himself. He is God. He is the Creator. The Father has given Him a name which is above every name.
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:12 am
by dwight92070
Revelation 22:9 - The angel rebuked John for worshipping him. He told John, "Worship God." Yet God said, "Let all the angels of God worship Him." in Hebrews 1:6. In Hebrews 1:13, the author says, "But to which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.'" That means Jesus' enemies will be bowing down to Him in worship. In Revelation 5:8-14, Jesus, the Lamb is worshipped but angels and the 24 elders, myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands.
ONLY GOD IS TO BE WORSHIPPED! Yet Jesus is worshipped here and throughout His lifetime on earth! And rightly so, because He is God!
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:02 pm
by Paidion
It is recorded in the New Testament that there are many persons other than the Father or the Son that people worship.
But there is no point in my listing them, since you will simply reply that the ought not to be worshipped.
So the fact that Jesus, the Son of God, was worshipped, in no way proves that He is therefore God.
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:36 pm
by darinhouston
Paidion wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:02 pm
It is recorded in the New Testament that there are many persons other than the Father or the Son that people worship.
But there is no point in my listing them, since you will simply reply that the ought not to be worshipped.
So the fact that Jesus, the Son of God, was worshipped, in no way proves that He is therefore God.
Thanks, Paidion. The "throne" argument also barely even needs to be made, but you made it well. I also don't understand the argument that having the same authority makes one "equal" to another with the same authority. That simply just does not follow, logically, or even in this world's organizations. My company is full of people all ultimately reporting to our CEO and there are many lines and levels of authority. This is just plain silliness. Likewise with so many of the other arguments made here over and over. It's like a broken record, lately. I also note how often the oft-cited scriptures talk of 'inherited' authority/name or "acquired" positions and that sort of thing without ANY consideration of the fact that if you inherit something or acquire it, it's not an "essential" quality (in a philosophical sense).
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:42 pm
by commonsense
I think the New Testament explains who the Father is.
"Abraham is the father of all who believe."
'If you belong to Christ then you are Abraham's seed." How are we related to Abraham? He isn't our PHYSICAL father. But we're SPIRITUALLY related to him, being one in the same Spirit. The New Testament doesn't say that Jesus is our Father.
Jesus was Abraham's seed, just as we are Abraham's seed. We're the seed of God(God's offspring, sons, daughters, children of God).We're the seed that brings forth the fruit of the Spirit, just as Abraham was "fruitful."
We all one in the same Spirit.
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:24 am
by dwight92070
Paidion wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:02 pm
It is recorded in the New Testament that there are many persons other than the Father or the Son that people worship.
But there is no point in my listing them, since you will simply reply that the ought not to be worshipped.
So the fact that Jesus, the Son of God, was worshipped, in no way proves that He is therefore God.
Dwight - That is a foolish argument. Bring them on. List them. Let all the persons that are worshipped line up by Jesus to see how they compare. The author of Hebrews will testify against all of them. To which of them did God say, "Let all the angels of God worship him"? To which of them did God say, "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands"? Which of these "candidates for worship" claimed to be without sin and then proved it by living a sinless life? Which of them predicted how he would die and even promised that he would raise Himself from dead - and then did! "Destroy this temple and in three days, I will raise it up" To which of them did God say, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased. Listen to Him!"? Which of them claimed preexistence as Jesus did? - John 17:5 and John 1:30
Dwight -So tell me, which of them proved that he was worthy of worship? NONE BUT JESUS! Just because men worship other men, that does not make their "objects" of worship, God. But when One comes on the scene Who proves He is worthy of worship (Worthy is the Lamb!) - YES, He IS GOD! God, Who said, "You shall have no other gods before Me (or besides Me), is the One Who COMMANDS that all people everywhere worship His Son. "Do homage to the Son ..." Psalm 2:12
Dwight - How is it that God would command that He alone is to be worshipped, since He alone is God and then turn around and say "Worship My Son"? There is only one explanation - The Son IS God. Or did God change His mind? I don't think so.
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:29 am
by darinhouston
commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:42 pm
I think the New Testament explains who the Father is.
"Abraham is the father of all who believe."
'If you belong to Christ then you are Abraham's seed." How are we related to Abraham? He isn't our PHYSICAL father. But we're SPIRITUALLY related to him, being one in the same Spirit. The New Testament doesn't say that Jesus is our Father.
Jesus was Abraham's seed, just as we are Abraham's seed. We're the seed of God(God's offspring, sons, daughters, children of God).We're the seed that brings forth the fruit of the Spirit, just as Abraham was "fruitful."
We all one in the same Spirit.
I think this is generally true, but is a matter of degree of devotion and emphasis. As a Christian, all of the scriptural discussion about the seed of Abraham points to Christ as the central figure of our redemption and our path to a relationship with the Father. Abraham played an important role in the history of the church and in bringing forth the precursor to the NT church (and so might be worthy of some degree of devotion or even perhaps adoration), particularly since he is called out in the so-called "Hall of Faith." But more importantly, his role in our lives is in being the vehicle of the Father's faithfulness and in bringing forth the Messiah, Jesus. Beyond that, there's some room for devotion, but I think it's important to keep that in perspective or we risk directing our devotion which belongs to Christ and the Father to Abraham. There is some truth that the same spirit led Abraham that leads us and lives within us, but that's true for many in history and those around us. I think it's important not to overstate or over-emphasize this as if he has some importance to us today beyond this history and testimony or to place him in any way on par or above Christ in importance to our faith.
I hear that coming through in some of your posts, so I thought it was important and worth mentioning.
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:02 pm
by Paidion
Dwight wrote:How is it that God would command that He alone is to be worshipped, since He alone is God and then turn around and say "Worship My Son"? There is only one explanation - The Son IS God. Or did God change His mind? I don't think so
That is not the only explanation. However, I will no longer attempt to convince you of the truth concerning the divine Son of God,
the only Son of God. For even if I were successful, I believe you wouldn't change your mind concerning what you want to believe (namely that Jesus is God).
As the saying goes:
"Convince a man against his will; he's of the same opinion still."
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:50 pm
by dwight92070
Paidon,
Obviously that's a two-way street.
Dwight