Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:35 pm

Otherness wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:52 pm
A recurring theme in the arguments put forth by non-trinitarains is that there is just so much in the New Testament that witnesses to Jesus' distinction from God and His subordination to, and dependence upon, the Father. Of course there is!

Creation is organically (ontologically) distinct from God, and if this is not a fundamental in your theology you have no escape from a pantheistic view of God. When the Word incarnated He literally (ontologically) clothed (Philippians 2:7) Himself with that distinction and subordination that is, vis-a-vis God, native to Creation. This is the spiritual labor, the work, that saves us, that lifts our reality (from below) into the heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6).

In His Life here with us He lived as one of us and His Spirit absorbed all the reality that any human being must deal with, all the while exposing and subjecting that reality to the Light of Obedience (Faithfulness). This victory of His now infuses our reality and is ministered to us by the Presence of His Spirit in us. The Spirit of Jesus captivates us in our captivity because HIS PRESENCE with(in) us overcomes the reality of the world in us that separates us from God.

This was the Plan (the Logos) in (from) the Beginning...and when the Logos became flesh...He actually became flesh. When our flesh experiences the Spirit of Christ we finally have our deepest, deepest, deepest need met : the Presence of God, Himself, healing our separation from Him. The Life experience of Jesus is (becomes) our ladder to heaven (our transformation from the life of the flesh to the Life of the Spirit).
I don't believe that answers the questions but can totally respect your position as rational - the problem with others here is that you can't have that answer to the problem, on the one hand, and then, on the other hand, appeal to omniscience or a lack of need for faith or other manifestations of just "being God" while enfleshed.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:51 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:54 am
I think Matthew 23:24 is the most relevant scripture here.
Dwight - When you can't provide a legitimate rebuttal, you resort to name-calling. That's not very mature.

dizerner

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dizerner » Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:56 pm

Otherness wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:52 pm
This was the Plan (the Logos) in (from) the Beginning...and when the Logos became flesh...He actually became flesh.

Great post!

I am convinced Functional Kenosis is the only doctrine that harmonizes the Biblical data, Christ temporarily divesting his divine attributes and actually living a human experience.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:59 pm

dizerner wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:56 pm
Otherness wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:52 pm
This was the Plan (the Logos) in (from) the Beginning...and when the Logos became flesh...He actually became flesh.

Great post!

I am convinced Functional Kenosis is the only doctrine that harmonizes the Biblical data, Christ temporarily divesting his divine attributes and actually living a human experience.
There are times when there is nothing to rebut and there are others where rebuttal is fruitless. I'll just leave it to the reader to decide if one of those is applicable here. A separate topic of how faith differs from trust might be intriguing, but in the context of this discussion it's pretty ridiculous.

Otherness
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Otherness » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:11 pm

darinhouston>>>I don't believe that answers the questions but can totally respect your position as rational - the problem with others here is that I don't believe that answers the questions but can totally respect your position as rational - the problem with others here is that you can't have that answer to the problem, on the one hand, and then, on the other hand, appeal to omniscience or a lack of need for faith or other manifestations of just "being God" while enfleshed. .<<<

Please, so that I may be pertinent in my response, elaborate on this objection of yours : “you can't have that answer to the problem, on the one hand, and then, on the other hand, appeal to omniscience or a lack of need for faith or other manifestations of just "being God" while enfleshed.”

dizerner

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dizerner » Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:13 am

Otherness wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:11 pm
Please, so that I may be pertinent in my response, elaborate on this objection of yours : “you can't have that answer to the problem, on the one hand, and then, on the other hand, appeal to omniscience or a lack of need for faith or other manifestations of just "being God" while enfleshed.”

I think his objection really only applies to the teaching of a lot of classical theology, where God's attributes prevent him from any true kenosis.

Do we really know what God can or cannot do, and how can we deduce what God can or cannot do from Scripture? "Is anything too hard for the Lord?" seems to explicitly tell us that our own limitations on God will fail.

If God wanted to for a time no longer function in some of his attributes, who are we to define him as not able to.

Otherwise the normal defense is basically half of God didn't know and half of God did, which doesn't seem honest for Jesus to say "I don't know" something, since he didn't specify "Part of me doesn't know something." Then we are separating the human Jesus from the identity of the Son of God, and this is why the Hypostatic Union fails to Biblically describe Christ's identity for me.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:08 am

Trust is not the same as Faith. Actually these two words are different from each other and are used in different contexts. Faith is a more commonly used in a spiritual context while trust is an important concept in relationships.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:37 am

The only reason a discussion about faith vs. trust would be "ridiculous" is because you would lose the argument. You're like the little boy who can't win the game, so he angrily walks away and refuses to play altogether. As he walks away, he calls his opponent names.

Jesus trusted His Father because they had an eternal relationship. He didn't need faith in His Father, because, in the Trinity, He was the Father. (Isaiah 9:6) as well as the Son, as well as the Spirit. (Now the Lord is the Spirit)

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:40 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:51 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:54 am
I think Matthew 23:24 is the most relevant scripture here.
Dwight - When you can't provide a legitimate rebuttal, you resort to name-calling. That's not very mature.
To be clear, I never called you a name or made any personal attack - this verse relates to your argument, not your self.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:41 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:40 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:51 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:54 am
I think Matthew 23:24 is the most relevant scripture here.
Dwight - When you can't provide a legitimate rebuttal, you resort to name-calling. That's not very mature.
To be clear, I never called you a name or made any personal attack - this verse relates to your argument, not your self.
Dwight - "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel."

Dwight - You really expect me to believe that?? If that's really true, then maybe you should have said that to begin with, so I wouldn't take it the wrong way.

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