Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:27 pm

By now, one would think that you guys realize that you have explained away a HUGE section of scripture - and that section just keeps getting larger and larger. When will the time come when you just accept the words for what they say?

commonsense
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:46 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:21 am
Dwight - I think there is some misquoting here. "But as at that time he who was born ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, persecuted him (who was born) ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT." (NOT born BY the Spirit) There is a big difference. Ishmael was born according to (the plans of) Abraham and Sarah's fleshly nature. Isaac was born according to (the plans of) the Holy Spirit, not by or of the Spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit was with these people, as they were obedient to God, but not (generally) IN them, which happens only after Jesus died and was raised.
Dwight, Ishmael was born by the Hagar( a bondwoman). Isaac was born ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT ( conforming to the Spirit or in relation to the Spirit).
Yes, the Holy Spirit was with these people, just as the Holy Spirit is with us today, in our hearts and minds.
dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:21 am
Dwight - Again, regarding Pharoah's words about Joseph, another misquote. It reads, "Can we find a man like this, in whom is a divine spirit?" Pharoah didn't know anything about the Holy Spirit. He assumed that Joseph had some divine spirit in him - Pharoah probably believed in MANY divine spirits. Again, I'm sure the Holy Spirit was WITH Joseph, but not IN him.
Again, the Holy spirit was IN Joseph. You're response makes no sense.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:18 pm

Really? And when exactly did the Holy Spirit enter into Joseph? In the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit enters us when we are born again. There is no "born again" experience under the Old Covenant.

John 7:39 - "But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; FOR THE SPIRIT WAS NOT YET GIVEN (to EVERY BELIEVER), because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So, if the Spirit was not yet given, during Jesus' earthy life, how could He enter into the Old Testament saints?

There were a few exceptions. The Holy Spirit came upon Jewish prophets, priests, and kings in the Old Testament. But even there, it appears that He CAME UPON THEM, but did not necessarily indwell them. Two other exceptions might be John the Baptist and his mother, Elizabeth, both of which were filled with the Holy Spirit.

commonsense
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:50 pm

Dwight, the word of God (the seed) was being sown long before Jesus. Some were hearing,receiving and obeying. Some were not. Those who did knew exactly where to find God."The word is very near you in your mouth and in your heart."
Therefore,circumcise your heart and be stiff-necked no longer."
"But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear and are drawn away to worship and serve other gods, you shall surely perish."

"But from there, you will seek the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul."
"Now put away the foreign gods which are among you and incline your heart to the Lord your God."
'As for you, Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and a willing mind."
You honor Me with your lips, but your heart is far from Me."

Abraham was sowing the seed and planting the vineyard.
Isaiah 5:7 " For the vineyard of the Lord is the house of Israel."
Isaiah 5: "He dug it up and cleared out it's stones and planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in it's midst, and also made a wine press in it; so He expected it to bring forth good grapes but it brought forth wild grapes."
Again, How was Abraham being "fruitful" if he did not have the Spirit to do so?
And how are the people of Israel supposed to be bearing good fruit if God is not offering the indwelling Spirit?
dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:18 pm
But even there, it appears that He CAME UPON THEM,
When the Holy Spirit descended ( came down upon) Jesus, was the Spirit IN Him?

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:22 am

commonsense wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:50 pm

Again, How was Abraham being "fruitful" if he did not have the Spirit to do so?
And how are the people of Israel supposed to be bearing good fruit if God is not offering the indwelling Spirit?

Dwight - Okay, then how do you explain John 7:39? "... for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified?"

When the Holy Spirit descended ( came down upon) Jesus, was the Spirit IN Him?

Dwight - We would have to assume so, since Colossians 2:9 tells us, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." It appears that He was indwelt by the Holy Spirit, while yet in Mary's womb.

Dwight - You can't say the same about any other person - Abraham, Moses, Joseph - all of the godly persons of the Bible were just human, none were the same as Jesus.

commonsense
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:21 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:22 am
Dwight - Okay, then how do you explain John 7:39? "... for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified?"
Many of the people, having lost the knowledge God that was previously revealed in others, were raised in different beliefs. Jesus didn't meet their standards of righteousness.
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:22 am

Dwight - You can't say the same about any other person - Abraham, Moses, Joseph - all of the godly persons of the Bible were just human, none were the same as Jesus.
Yes, Jesus was human. God showed His glory in all of the people that you mention and more, so that we might see God in them and believe in Him(the One True God). They were all extra ordinary people, having an extra measure of the Spirit that comes from God who gives the Spirit without measure.
"With God all things are possible. " and "You will do even greater things than these."

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:10 pm

commonsense wrote:Yes, Jesus was human. God showed His glory in all of the people that you mention and more, so that we might see God in them and believe in Him(the One True God). They were all extra ordinary people, having an extra measure of the Spirit that comes from God who gives the Spirit without measure.
"With God all things are possible. " and "You will do even greater things than these."
commonsense, surely you see Jesus as in a different class from Abraham, Moses, Joseph, etc., right? He was born of a virgin and had no fallen nature from his birth, after all....

It sounds like I'm closer to Dwight on this one, even if not fully aligned -- Jesus didn't just have an extra measure of the Spirit of the same sort that the fathers had - in fact, I'm not sure you could say they "had" the spirit within them at all. They were definitely moved by the Spirit and the Spirit was "on them," but not "in them." This was a key difference in Jesus and, now he has enabled it even in us (in a lesser measure of fullness, of course). He was in perfect communion with the Spirit and was guided by the Spirit in everything He did. Of course, there were things the Spirit hadn't revealed to Him until the time was right, and that sort of thing (much like us), but there was no Sin getting in the way of His relationship with the Father through His Spirit. This cannot be said on the other side of the cross by any other human being (notably, many Trinitarian scholars will not concede that Jesus was in fact a "human being" even if it could be said that he was a "man" -- but I digress...).

commonsense
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:40 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:10 pm
in fact, I'm not sure you could say they "had" the spirit within them at all.
Darin, then where was the Spirit? You say that it was on them or that they were moved by the Spirit. How so? I don't understand this perspective.
As I asked Dwight, when the Spirit descended ( came down upon) Jesus,was the Spirit in Him?

When it says, " Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?"(Gen.41:38) "In so much as God has shown you all this, there is no one as wise as you."(Gen 41:39) Where is the Spirit?

How did Moses do what he was doing? By a different method than the apostles?

Where did Solomon get his wisdom?

How was Abraham being "fruitful" if he did not have the Spirit which produces fruit?

How were the people of Israel supposed to bring forth good fruit if God did not supply them with the Spirit?(Isaiah 5)

Jesus-"These works that I have been doing, you will do even greater things than these." Is this true?
God gives the Spirit without measure to those who believe and obey. Is this true?
With God all things are possible. Is this true?

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:00 am

commonsense wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:40 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:10 pm
in fact, I'm not sure you could say they "had" the spirit within them at all.
Darin, then where was the Spirit? You say that it was on them or that they were moved by the Spirit. How so? I don't understand this perspective.
As I asked Dwight, when the Spirit descended ( came down upon) Jesus,was the Spirit in Him?

When it says, " Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?"(Gen.41:38) "In so much as God has shown you all this, there is no one as wise as you."(Gen 41:39) Where is the Spirit?

How did Moses do what he was doing? By a different method than the apostles?

Where did Solomon get his wisdom?

How was Abraham being "fruitful" if he did not have the Spirit which produces fruit?

How were the people of Israel supposed to bring forth good fruit if God did not supply them with the Spirit?(Isaiah 5)

Jesus-"These works that I have been doing, you will do even greater things than these." Is this true?
God gives the Spirit without measure to those who believe and obey. Is this true?
With God all things are possible. Is this true?
We aren't told exactly how the spirit works and moves in and on and through people in the detail modern western sensibilities might want. How the Spirit works is, indeed, a mystery. I prefer to leave mystery where revelation leaves it. That is one of the biggest problems with the Trinity - Trinitarians create a theory which itself creates and leads to mysteries - that is a pretty good suggestion you need to back up a bit and stop doctrine where mystery begins. Conjecture and theories, fine, but not dogma. But again I digress...

What seems right to me from my reading of scripture as to the spirit is that we aren't utterly devoid of the spirit. We were given the breath of life by the spirit of God. We were created in the image of God and that image was marred through sin, so that we are incapable of being full of the spirit in our natural state (perhaps as if we leak). We do seem to have enough of the spirit in us that we have enough life to move and act in this world and to seek god and communicate if through a glass, dimly. Even this side of calvary, we still have a dimmed view and a measure of the fullness of the spirit in us as part of who we are, how we think, how we move. We get more of the spirit the more we follow it and it becomes a part of who we are the more we move towards holiness. God is spirit and that's how we commune with him and how he works through us. But, on the earlier side of calvary, post-fall, man didn't have the ability, generally, to be filled with the spirit. God is God and he can make exceptions as he did with prophets, through whom he spoke. However, even that seems to have been of a different sort than the normative filling of the spirit inherent in Christ and available to us post-calvary. Moses and Abraham seem to have been in communion with God in ways that we aren't so that God's plans could be done through them. We aren't told exactly how that works but he communicated with them in various ways - it seems through dreams and visions, through appearances of agents/angels, directly somehow, verbally, etc. But, that seems very different than being "possessed" of the spirit as was at Pentecost and which can be part of our normative experience. Aside from the "how," we aren't even told much about the "what" of the Spirit - it would seem as the Father "IS" spirit and this is the way in which we experience the Father and the Father exercises His will on earth and in creation. My personal theory of Christ is that the spirit was so fully a part of Him and in Him and in communion with Him through his sinless perfection at birth and through his life that he was in full communion with the Father and was in that sense "one" with the Father and was able to do all that he did. In this way, we experienced God in a man - once he made the ultimate sacrifice and made the cure for our sin and sinfulness available through his death and resurrection, we now have the capacity for that very same Spirit to be in us so that we too can be filled with the spirit and have communion with the Father through what Christ did. That is not inherent in us as it was in Christ, but is available to us as we learn and grow to be more like Christ through the power of the measure of the spirit we DO have. This was not so with the ancients, though their faith and faithfulness was accounted to them as righteousness, they did not have Christ's righteousness through the spirit like we do.

This is how I tend to think of it anyway. Again, this is only my synthesis of scriptural revelation - not a dogmatic position. It's helpful to my walk to think of it in this way, but I want truth better than certainty. So, I'm open to refinement. In the end, the only revelation we are given is what we need. Taking it further than that is unwise and unhelpful.

There's a song by David Wilcox that is worthy of contemplation... my favorite line is the ending --

"We cannot trade empty for empty
We must go to the waterfall
For there's a break in the cup that holds love
A break in the cup that holds love
A break in the cup that holds love
Inside us all. Inside us all"


Break in the Cup

I try so hard to please you
To be the love that fills you up
I try to pour on sweet affection
But I think you got a broken cup
Because you can't believe I love you
I try to tell you that there is no doubt
But as soon as I fill you with all I've got
That little break will let it run right out

I cannot make you happy
I'm learning love and money never do
But I can pour myself out 'til I'm empty
Trying to be just who you'd want me to
But I cannot make you happy
Even though our love is true
For there's a break in the cup that holds love
Inside of you

Now I begin to understand you
As you explain this fear you feel
It's when you see me fall into that sorrow
It makes you doubt the love is real
'Cause the lonely wind still blows through me
I turn away so can't see
But now how could I still be so empty
With all the love that you pour on me

I guess you cannot make me happy
That's a money back guarantee
But you can pour yourself out 'til you're empty
Trying to be just who I'd want you to be
You cannot make me happy
It's just the law of gravity
And that break in the cup that holds love
Inside of me

So if you're tempted to rescue me
Drowning in this quicksand up to my neck
Before you grab my hand to save me
Why don't you ask me if I'm finished yet
Because you cannot make me happy
Not when I'm empty inside of me
But you can pull yourself right in here with me
My misery'd love to have your company

We cannot trade empty for empty
We must go to the waterfall
For there's a break in the cup that holds love
A break in the cup that holds love
A break in the cup that holds love
Inside us all. Inside us all

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:39 am

commonsense wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:40 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:10 pm
in fact, I'm not sure you could say they "had" the spirit within them at all.
Darin, then where was the Spirit? You say that it was on them or that they were moved by the Spirit. How so? I don't understand this perspective.
As I asked Dwight, when the Spirit descended ( came down upon) Jesus,was the Spirit in Him?

Dwight - Granted, the things of the Spirit of God are not easily grasped, but we know God gave us the scripture to help us understand, at least as much as we are able to. My understanding is that Jesus already had the Spirit of God IN Him from conception and the Spirit came UPON Him at His baptism. Luke 4:1 says that Jesus, having just been baptized, was now FULL of the Holy Spirit and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness. Was He not FULL of the Holy Spirit before His baptism? Apparently not, even though I believe He had the Spirit dwelling in Him.

Dwight - The apostles, during Christ's lifetime, had the Spirit WITH them, but not yet IN them. John 14:17 - "... the Spirit of truth ..you know HIm because He abides WITH you and WILL BE IN YOU." Then, after Jesus was resurrected, He "breathed on them and said to them 'Receive the Holy Spirit'" John 20:22 Now they had the Holy Spirit IN them. Then on the day of pentecost, Jesus told them "you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come UPON you ... Acts 1:8 This is also called the baptism with the Holy Spirit or being filled with the Holy Spirit. - Acts 1:5

When it says, " Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?"(Gen.41:38) "In so much as God has shown you all this, there is no one as wise as you."(Gen 41:39) Where is the Spirit?

Dwight - Just because Pharoah said Joseph had the Spirit of God IN him, doesn't make it so. He was obviously impressed with Joseph's ability to interpret his dream. The Holy Spirit could very well have been WITH Joseph and yet not IN him.

How did Moses do what he was doing? By a different method than the apostles?

Dwight - Before Jesus rose from the dead. the apostles performed miracles by the Holy Spirit being WITH them. After they received the Spirit IN them (John 20:22), and the Spirit UPON them (Acts 1:8)(also called being FILLED with the Holy Spirit), they continued to perform miracles. Moses apparently had the Holy Spirit WITH him (and possibly IN him - remember there seems to be an exception for prophets, priests, and kings, as to their possessing the Spirit IN them, or it could be that the Holy Spirit comes UPON them. 1 Samuel 11:6; 1 Samuel 16:13)

Where did Solomon get his wisdom?

Dwight - It could be the same as Moses, only Solomon was a king vs. Moses, a prophet.

How was Abraham being "fruitful" if he did not have the Spirit which produces fruit?

Dwight - Possibly by having the Spirit WITH him or, since he was a prophet, it could also be the same as Moses, where the exception applies.

How were the people of Israel supposed to bring forth good fruit if God did not supply them with the Spirit?(Isaiah 5)

Dwight - By having the Spirit of God WITH them.

Jesus-"These works that I have been doing, you will do even greater things than these." Is this true?

Dwight - Some have suggested the works are greater in quantity, since there are millions in the body of Christ. What could be greater (referring to miracles) than bringing a dead person back to life?

God gives the Spirit without measure to those who believe and obey. Is this true?

Dwight - The only One who had the Spirit without measure, was Jesus Himself. We have the Spirit, in part. He had the Spirit without measure. John 3:34 seems to refer to Jesus, not all believers.

With God all things are possible. Is this true?

Dwight - Of course.

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