Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:35 pm

Paidion wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:22 pm
Dwight wrote:God Himself was the mediator between Himself and men, since no human was qualified. And we know that Jesus was not JUST A MAN. He was God in the flesh.
Read it again, Dwight, and this time accept it as true:

For there is one God, AND there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus... (1Timothy 2:5 ESV)


It doesn't state that God Himself is the mediator. It simply says there is one God. Who is that one God? It is the heavenly Father.

Dwight - I just quoted you two verses that state that God is the mediator between Himself and men. Why didn't you restate those verses like you always do this verse? It's because those verses contradict your point.

Dwight - I do accept 1 Timothy 2:5 as true - every word of it. But newsflash -there are more verses in the Bible than just this one. You can keep repeating this verse until the rapture and it won't change the fact that there are a multitude of verses that show that Jesus is God.

Then it says AND there is one mediator between God and men. Who is that one mediator? It states that it is the man Christ Jesus.
It doesn't as much as hint that it God the Father Himself.

Dwight - No it doesn't, not in this verse. I'm not saying that this verse does say that. But the Bible has more verses.

Nor does it hint that the one mediator, the man Christ Jesus, is God in any sense.

Dwight - Again, you are correct, for this verse. Tell me something I don't know.

But throughout the New Testament, it is affirmed that Jesus is the SON of God.

Dwight - And God Himself.

He is not the son of himself;

Dwight - Excuse me, where did I say that Jesus is the son of Himself?

he is the son of God the Father.

Dwight - Yes He is.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:46 pm

.
.

Convince a man against his will;
He's of the same opinion still.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:07 pm

The word "mediator" occurs exactly 6 times in the New Testament, and in every one of those, Jesus is the mediator:

Galatians 3:19, Galatians 3:20, 1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 8:6, Hebrews 9:15, and Hebrews 12:24
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:01 am

In Galatians 3:19 and 20, the mediator appears to be Moses, not Jesus.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:08 am

God looked for a man, a mediator, in Ezekiel 22:30 and in Isaiah 59:15-16 and in Isaiah 63:5 and He found "no man" and "no one to help". Where was Jesus back then? You say He existed then. Then why was He not the mediator between God and man back then? In each of these 3 verses, God Himself became the mediator, because He alone was righteous. Jesus was in God even then, as the Word, mediating for Himself.

God hasn't changed today, nor has man changed. He is righteous, man is sinful. Just like He mediated for Himself in Ezekiel's day and Isaiah's day, so today also, He mediates for Himself through the person of Christ. He Himself was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself. 2 Corinthians 5:19. Yes, Jesus is our mediator, but if God was not in Him, He could not mediate for anyone. But God was not in Jesus, in the same way He is in us. We are not God. Jesus was the Word, which was God and which became flesh. God gave Himself for us. He mediated for Himself.

As Dr. Brown said, if God sent an EXALTED MAN to die for us and to save us, what kind of sacrifice was that and how does that show His love for us? It wouldn't. But not only did He mediate for us but He Himself, in Christ, died for us and shed His blood for us. NOW we see God's love for us.

Acts 20:28 - "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of GOD which HE PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD." (Does anyone see a "trinity" in this verse? It's there.) Did you catch that? God's own blood?

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:42 am

Paidion wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:42 am
So... according to you, "the firstborn of all creation" does not mean the firstborn of all creation, but that Jesus has preeminence over all.

Dwight - The firstborn son got a double portion of the inheritance, as compared with the other sons. The firstborn son had a superior position in the family, as compared with the other sons. Deuteronomy 21:17 David was not the firstborn son in his family - he had 6 older brothers. Yet God said of him, "I also shall make him (My) firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth." We know David is a type of Christ. God did not supernaturally change his birth order, so that he was the firstborn in his family. Nor did God supernaturally make David the first king on earth. There were many kings on the earth before him. So when God says "firstborn" here, He is not referring to a chronological order of birth - He is saying that David's position, as compared with other earthly kings, would be above all of them. He was the preeminent one, superior to all others.

So when the scripture calls Jesus "the firstborn of all creation", again taken in context, we know that it is not speaking of a time frame of the chronological acts of God. Rather it is a reference to Jesus being above all creation and superior to all creation. Look up all of the "firstborn" verses. They all directly refer to Jesus' superiority, or speak of His superiority in the surrounding verses. Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15; Colossians 1:18; Hebrews 1:6; Hebrews 12:23; Revelation 1:5.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:28 pm

Dwight, perhaps the strongest New Testament evidence that Jesus is God is found in John 1:18

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (NAS95)

This seems to be saying that Jesus (who is in the bosom of the Father) is the only begotten God, whereas God the Father, was not begotten.

However, most translations have "the only begotten Son", for example, all of the following translations:AKJV, ASV, AV, BBE, Darby,Diaglot, Douay, EMTV, JB2000, LO, NKJV, NRSV, Webster, and YLT. So what's going on here? It's because of the fact that some manuscripts have "υιος" (son) and others have "θεος" (God). For example, Textus Receptus ("Received Text" from the 1500s) has "υιος" whereas the Westcott-Hort manuscript (1851) has "θεος".

So how do we know which is correct? I suggest that the oldest Greek manuscripts containing the verse are more likely to be correct.
I happen to have a book containing copies of all existing Greek manuscripts of the New Testament prior to 300 A.D.
There are only two of these manuscripts that contain John 1:18 — Papyrus 66 and Papyrus 75.
Both of those manuscripts have "μονογενης θεος" (only-begotten God).
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:49 pm

Paidon,

I'm glad to see that you finally agree with me.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:47 pm

I can't say that I agree with your view that Jesus is God.
Rather "God" in the verses I quoted refers to "God" in a generic sense.
When referring to the only God, the article precedes the word "God". Without the article, "God" may refer to a divine being, who, although divine, is not "THE God".

Jesus is "God" in the sense of being divine like His Father, but not in the sense of either BEING His Father, or being a second God.

There is only one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus the Anointed One. (1 Timothy 2:5)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:18 am

By the way, Paidion, you may note that I quoted the NET translation earlier. The fact that I quoted a trinitarian translation is to give it credence with those who might only accept a translation from a strongly trinitarian committee. That doesn't mean I agree with all of their views or that I think they got all other passages right. (in case you were wondering).

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