Jesus is God

[dizerner]

I assume you're referencing John 20.

Try again!

But of course! Silly me - but, of course what was revealed was being Son of God - Messiah. But, you knew that.

You're missing the point of WHO revealed it.

See, one must not think one can "deduce" such truth.

[darinhouston]

Try again!

But of course! Silly me - but, of course what was revealed was being Son of God - Messiah. But, you knew that.

You're missing the point of WHO revealed it.

See, one must not think one can "deduce" such truth.

I'm not sure I follow your logic - just because it was revealed by the Father doesn't mean it "has" to be and "can't be" deduced by some. For some reason, he needed that revelation (or at least did receive it). In the end, the Spirit reveals this truth to all who accept its truth. But, since the Father is spirit, then that is how he revealed it to him. But, just because the spirit leads us into all truth doesn't mean we aren't led there by the use of reason.

[darinhouston]

Since this has turned into a discussion of the role of logic/reason to come to truths of various types, it might be better in a separate discussion. But, I'll add that the reason Jesus spoke in parables was to conceal what otherwise would have been revealed by plain teaching to some. Those intended to receive it needed the spirit to reveal the truths of the parables. But, later teaching would be plain so that it could be received by any. That said, receiving the truth of something and being willing to live a certain way in light of that truth is a different matter.

[dizerner]

The pride of man lodges deep within our instincts that God gave us our own mental ability to rely on.

But all throughout Scripture this is condemned, and the opposite is declared.

That one could take "the Father revealed" and make it to mean "my mind will reveal" just shows how faulty and inaccurate relying on our intellect can be.

A few posts about logic in a massively old and long thread will not derail anything.

The point has been made, and even illustrated right here in front of us.

[darinhouston]

The pride of man lodges deep within our instincts that God gave us our own mental ability to rely on.

But all throughout Scripture this is condemned, and the opposite is declared.

That one could take "the Father revealed" and make it to mean "my mind will reveal" just shows how faulty and inaccurate relying on our intellect can be.

A few posts about logic in a massively old and long thread will not derail anything.

The point has been made, and even illustrated right here in front of us.

We can do nothing without the power of the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean that nothing is revealed through our senses. Historic truths, for example. Matthew 22:37 and Luke 10:27 come immediately to mind to rebut the notion that we aren't to use logic/reason to love the lord - that means nothing if it doesn't mean at least that we will have truths about him revealed to us to properly direct that love and so forth. Acts 17:11 also suggests that the Bereans didn't wait for the Father or some burning in the bosom to reveal whether the apostles were telling them truths - they searched the scriptures with their minds and reason to "see" if the things they were being told were true.

It's a "both and" - let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

[dwight92070]

The pride of man lodges deep within our instincts that God gave us our own mental ability to rely on.

But all throughout Scripture this is condemned, and the opposite is declared.

That one could take "the Father revealed" and make it to mean "my mind will reveal" just shows how faulty and inaccurate relying on our intellect can be.

A few posts about logic in a massively old and long thread will not derail anything.

The point has been made, and even illustrated right here in front of us.

Dwight - I see that Darin and I agree on this point. That doesn't happen too often. Dizerner, if nobody relied on their own mental ability, including Christians, then we would be living in the stone age right now. We would not have cars, computers, trains, ships, airplanes, ships - basically no modern inventions or conveniences. Nor would we have Christian theologians and teachers, and even the rest of us believers, who must rely on our brains to understand scripture and accurately handle the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 As Christians, however, we recognize what Jesus said, "...apart from Me, you can do nothing." Paul said " ... for in Him we live and move and exist, ..."

As we use, and even rely on our brains, we are constantly aware that God has not only made our brains, but He also made them work! Everything we do or say or think, must go through our brains before anything happens. If that didn't happen, we would be dead. Isn't it our brain that tells our heart to beat and our lungs to breathe and our mouth to speak, and our hands and feet to do this or that? When we get out of bed, don't we rely on our brain to assure us that our feet will hold us up?

But we do not consciously think, or say "I must put my full trust in God that when I step out of bed, He will hold me up." We do it, usually without even thinking about it. If God required us to consciously think or say that (and of course, believe it, which we do) before we did anything, we would basically be a "vegetable", because that would be impossible.

God meant for us to trust in our feet to hold us up, and to walk. He meant for us to trust in our arms and hands to open doors, feed ourselves, and even write posts on the Bible Forum.

It wouldn't matter what the Father revealed, if Peter couldn't understand it with his logic and his reasoning, it would have been useless. Nobody here, except you, said that we were interpreting "the Father revealed" to mean "my mind revealed". I believe the Father ALONE revealed, but Peter understood what was revealed using his brain. Not only that, but Peter had been with Jesus long enough to KNOW that he could expect supernatural things to happen, when he followed Him. This revelation was one of those supernatural things.

Dizerner, if you had not relied on your logic and your brain, you could not have even posted what you said. So you are doing the very thing that you say the Scripture condemns.

[darinhouston]

Dwight - I see that Darin and I agree on this point. That doesn't happen too often.

I dare say we likely agree on most points - there is one significant departure, but I suspect there are few others of material substance from what I've seen so far.

[dizerner]

Dizerner, if you had not relied on your logic and your brain, you could not have even posted what you said. So you are doing the very thing that you say the Scripture condemns.

I wish you'd rely on your brain to figure out how quoting posts work, but that's besides the point.

You are using the "brain" in a metaphysical way you yourself do not really understand, much like many atheists who espouse rationality disproves the supernatural. Yes, the "natural" understanding, whatever that is, can rearrange matter and energy—whatever that is. But assuming that's the case, it's all external manipulation, rearranging, not fully knowing the essence of a thing.You are using thought to validate thought, it's like the eye trying to see "seeing," there's no way around the fact that there is no external way to verify perceptions or validate logic. Natural thinking—whatever that is, and we have an "assumed' understanding of it—may play a part in communication, but that does not mean it is a reliable guide to truth or what should be trusted or depended on. It's just the unbelief of secular humanism that would espouse reliance upon natural thinking, instead of supernatural revelation from God.

And besides that airplanes, sanitation, computers, whatever, these are not moral things. If you breathe, if you exist, your morality is more important than your knowledge or how much technology you enjoy. No amount of "tech" can produce genuine sincere love for fellow beings.

Your understanding is just a complete mess, and that's what happens when we rely on our ourselves instead of depending on God. I would exhort and encourage you both to turn to prayer and ask God to show you these things, as I have as well.

"Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures."

"As for as the heavens are above the earth so far are my thoughts above yours."

[dwight92070]

Dizerner, if you had not relied on your logic and your brain, you could not have even posted what you said. So you are doing the very thing that you say the Scripture condemns.

I wish you'd rely on your brain to figure out how quoting posts work, but that's besides the point.

You are using the "brain" in a metaphysical way you yourself do not really understand, much like many atheists who espouse rationality disproves the supernatural. Yes, the "natural" understanding, whatever that is, can rearrange matter and energy—whatever that is. But assuming that's the case, it's all external manipulation, rearranging, not fully knowing the essence of a thing.You are using thought to validate thought, it's like the eye trying to see "seeing," there's no way around the fact that there is no external way to verify perceptions or validate logic. Natural thinking—whatever that is, and we have an "assumed' understanding of it—may play a part in communication, but that does not mean it is a reliable guide to truth or what should be trusted or depended on. It's just the unbelief of secular humanism that would espouse reliance upon natural thinking, instead of supernatural revelation from God.

And besides that airplanes, sanitation, computers, whatever, these are not moral things. If you breathe, if you exist, your morality is more important than your knowledge or how much technology you enjoy. No amount of "tech" can produce genuine sincere love for fellow beings.

Your understanding is just a complete mess, and that's what happens when we rely on our ourselves instead of depending on God. I would exhort and encourage you both to turn to prayer and ask God to show you these things, as I have as well.

"Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures."

"As for as the heavens are above the earth so far are my thoughts above yours."

On the contrary, your entire post is a complete mess of irrational ignorance, and that's what happens when you pretend that you rely on God, and that other Christians who disagree with you don't. Actually you are relying on your own carnal "knowledge", instead of God and the scriptures, doing the very thing that you condemn others for doing. I would exhort and encourage you to repent of your pride and hypocrisy.

[dwight92070]

1 Timothy 1:17 - "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen."

1 Timothy 6:14-16 - " ... until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time - He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Revelation 17:14 - "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, ..."

Revelation 19:11-16 - "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is call The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OR LORDS."

Every verse is speaking of Jesus. He is the ONLY King who is eternal, who alone possesses immortality, and who alone is invisible. He alone is the King of kings and the Lord of lords. He alone shed His blood for us and He alone is called the Word of God, who John tells us is God. He is the only Sovereign. He alone dwells in unapproachable light, which no man has seen or can see.

There's only One who could possibly fit this description - God.