Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:25 pm

Another great debate between Anthony Rogers and Carlos Xavier:
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed May 19, 2021 6:21 am

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped (asserted), but emptied Himself (laid aside His privileges), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Philippians 2:5-7

We are encouraged to have humility like Jesus had. If Jesus was not truly God, then for Him to NOT assert His (fake) equality with God, would not only NOT be humble, but it would border on fraud. But if He is God, then He did show humility by NOT asserting His Divine privileges.

Even so, He did give us "windows" to see His Deity, but not in a proud, flamboyant way.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Wed May 19, 2021 8:21 am

There are two main lines of thought for this Phil 2 passage, even among Trinitarians. The "pre-existence" view (which focuses on so-called kenosis theory) and the "ethical" view (or Second Adam view). Translation debates are central to that question, of course. But, putting which is "right" aside for a moment - one thing the pre-existence view loses (and which to my mind Trinitarian dogma loses) is the instructional value to guide our spiritual lives by the "example" of Christ and his life of obedience and humility. It's actually not that impressive for God to have done this, but to see what a perfect example of a human being fully in concert with the Holy Spirit and perfect communion with the Father looks like should give us a model and an encouragement of what we were made to be and what we can aspire to (at least in measure). The Second Adam view sees this as a contrast with the first Adam, who sought to "be like God" instead of humbly walking with Him and obeying His commands to further His purposes. In contrast, Jesus was the contrasting book-end like the second creation we find in the Kingdom he rules over. Where one leads to death, the other leads to life. This is what Joseph typified - the story of Joseph isn't the story of Pharaoh secretly interacting with his people and managing his affairs in the appearance of a slave, only to be revealed in the end as having stooped to that role for a time to show his humility. No, Joseph was a slave and strived to nothing but honor Pharaoh in his work. As a result, he was elevated by Pharaoh and was GIVEN the robes and signet of Pharaoh. I believe this view glorifies the Father more than if God Himself had "stooped" in space-time for a brief moment to pretend to be human, and is what Scripture seems to reveal.

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Homer
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Homer » Wed May 19, 2021 10:55 am

Darin,

Please clarify: do you believe that the Christ did not pre-exist his birth of the virgin Mary, was she a virgin, Was He truly God's Son due to her miraculous impregnation by the Holy Spirit? Was He no more than an exalted man?

Thanks, Homer

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Wed May 19, 2021 8:14 pm

Homer wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 10:55 am
Darin,

Please clarify: do you believe that the Christ did not pre-exist his birth of the virgin Mary, was she a virgin, Was He truly God's Son due to her miraculous impregnation by the Holy Spirit? Was He no more than an exalted man?

Thanks, Homer
Simple answers:
Homer wrote:Do you believe that the Christ did not pre-exist his birth of the virgin Mary
Not as "the Christ" and not as the man "Jesus" - otherwise, I suspect not in a personal sense but otherwise do not know.
Homer wrote:Was she a virgin?
I believe so.
Homer wrote:Was He truly God's Son due to her miraculous impregnation by the Holy Spirit?
I don't know if it is fair to say the Holy Spirit "impregnated" Mary - the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and caused her to be pregnant, but that's semantics - we don't know how that happened w/r/t sperm and ovum and DNA etc. But, generally yes. He could well also be called God's Son for reasons beyond the manner of his conception but also an adoptionist or other supplemental reason. But, truly Son, yes.
Homer wrote:Was He no more than an exalted man?
Not "no more than" but an exalted man nonetheless. There is so much more to Jesus and his authority/position/existence than mere exaltation.

----

I may not state this perfectly (not that my views are perfect, but this may not perfectly represent my views -- also, some are definitely in progress and subject to reflection), but Jesus was more than a "mere" exalted man - yet he was still a man who was exalted. His was a special case, unique in history, without the taint of or tendency to sin as a result of the fall, begotten without paternal genetics and whatever curse can be seen as coming through earthly paternalism. Adam was unique, too, but lacked a human mother and was not "begotten/born" - he was 'made" - so there's at least that difference whether that's a distinction without a difference. That's hardly a "mere" man, but a human being nonetheless - as unique and pure as Adam was (pre-Fall) but quite different than we who are slaves of sin from birth (post-Fall). Where Adam became separated from the fullness of God (and we were before our rebirth in the spirit), Jesus never was because he had pre-Fall Adamic perfection and so was always in perfect communion with God and anointed specially to be Christ. Yet with all the other frailties and vulnerabilities and temptations and humanity as us with real choice whether to follow the Spirit or not. He had from birth and through death what we seek in this life and theoretically can perhaps obtain in the fullness of the spirit, though his was unblemished.

"Pre-existence" is another matter -- it is difficult and we have little understanding of heavenly realms/realities to know what possibilities exist. For that reason, and because there are some passages that have the "sound" of pre-existence, I am not 100% certain whether there was some pre-incarnate existence in some form(but not as Jesus) that was later embodied in the man, Jesus (though I do not believe as a personal, co-eternal, co-equal part of a godhead). Whether some form of pre-existence or not, as a "title/position," I don't believe there was actually a "Christ" until Jesus, the man, was "anointed" (that's technically what the word means) but there is some debate on whether there was a "Son" before conception. In what form (spiritual/angelic/personal/impersonal) and to what extent created or begotten before conception (if any), I do not know (Paidion believes something like this I believe). I think the better position is that the only thing pre-existing was in the mind and plan of God as represented by the concept of the "Logos" in the earthly expression of who God is. That was the purpose for all things and all things were created through that plan and it became enfleshed in and expressed among us in the life, death, resurrection, ascension, and exaltation and rule of Jesus.

Where we start out and become further separated from God's spirit in our own sin and disobedience, Jesus never lost that fullness of the spirit. So, no, not a "mere" exalted man and - yes, the fruit of a virgin birth.

[note, there are some "Spirit Christologies" that make sense of some of the pre-existence passages, but they have their own problems and I don't fully understand them -- those passages are very few and most have "reasonable" if not likely interpretations (and others have suspicious textual criticisms) - I'm afraid they also speak also into a 1st century Jewish and Hellenistic understanding that we have lost in some measure, so I hesitate to interpret other scripture in light of these difficult passages. There is definitely something about heavenly realms and dimensional realities and space-time we don't understand and which are not revealed -- that could also perhaps explain some of those allusions. Again, it's a difficult thing to think about and we have little understanding to draw inferences. We're all eventually going to hit "mysteries." The question is whether we leave them where scripture reveals clear truth we don't understand or whether we use them as a cop-out when our contrivances break down or are incomplete.]

commonsense
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Wed May 19, 2021 9:02 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:14 pm
. Whether some form of pre-existence or not, as a "title/position," I don't believe there was actually a "Christ" until Jesus, the man, was "anointed" (that's technically what the word means) but there is some debate on whether there was a "Son" before conception.
There was a " Christ" before Jesus. Christ meaning those anointed with the Holy Spirit and who speak and act for God.
1 Samuel 16:13 "so Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed David in the presence of his brothers and from that day on the Spirit of the Lord came upon David with power from that day on."

There was also a son of God prior to Jesus.
"Israel is my son, My firstborn."

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Thu May 20, 2021 8:30 am

commonsense wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 9:02 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:14 pm
. Whether some form of pre-existence or not, as a "title/position," I don't believe there was actually a "Christ" until Jesus, the man, was "anointed" (that's technically what the word means) but there is some debate on whether there was a "Son" before conception.
There was a " Christ" before Jesus. Christ meaning those anointed with the Holy Spirit and who speak and act for God.
1 Samuel 16:13 "so Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed David in the presence of his brothers and from that day on the Spirit of the Lord came upon David with power from that day on."

There was also a son of God prior to Jesus.
"Israel is my son, My firstborn."
Again, this is a bit of a distraction but important to respond to.

In a generic sense, there was another anointed one - being anointed generally is not the point - there have been many anointed for various purposes and missions. Many of those are types pointing to Jesus (even David's type being recognized even then as needing to be fulfilled in another to come). But, the anointed one that was to come, the one anointed to be the Lord and Savior of the world, to bridge the great divide between mankind and God and to restore full fellowship with His people for all eternity - that is uniquely Jesus and all before was pointing to and waiting on him. Same with respect to Israel - it was a type of Jesus and all that was said of God's plan for Israel (though thwarted by their disobedience and need for a new covenant) is made whole and is perfected in Jesus. We are part of Israel to the extent we are part of the body of the risen Jesus.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu May 20, 2021 8:41 am

Not like Jesus there wasn't. No other "son" of God had been supernaturally implanted in the womb of a woman, and this implanting was the work of the Father and the Holy Spirit. Nor was any other "son" of God the promised Messiah, the Word, which was God, that had become flesh. No other "son" of God had the Father speak audibly from heaven to proclaim over Him, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." This was the ONLY begotten Son of God. No other "son" of God was born like Jesus was. No other "son" of God had the angel of the Lord proclaim over Him, "today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Messiah, the Lord." No other "son" of God was born in Bethlehem, fulfilling prophecy. No other "son" of God was born of a virgin and born into the line of Judah and David. No other "son" of God saved His people from their sins, and even saved the world from our sins. No other "son" of God spoke the way Jesus spoke, nor did any other "son" of God explain the Father and the Holy Spirit to give us understanding, like Jesus did. No other "son" of God was called the power of God and the wisdom of God. No other "son" of God had the angels worship Him at the command of God the Father. No other "son" of God is called the Head of the church, His body. No other "son" of God was willing to shed His blood for the sins of mankind, nor could they. No other "son" of God was without sin.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu May 20, 2021 9:01 am

Commonsense,

Once again you are lowering Jesus and elevating man. This is typical of a cult, which if you are not part of one, then apparently you are starting your own.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Thu May 20, 2021 3:42 pm

Hi Dwight, you wrote:Not like Jesus there wasn't. No other "son" of God had been supernaturally implanted in the womb of a woman, and this implanting was the work of the Father and the Holy Spirit. Nor was any other "son" of God the promised Messiah, the Word, which was God, that had become flesh. No other "son" of God had the Father speak audibly from heaven to proclaim over Him, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." This was the ONLY begotten Son of God. No other "son" of God was born like Jesus was. No other "son" of God had the angel of the Lord proclaim over Him, "today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Messiah, the Lord." No other "son" of God was born in Bethlehem, fulfilling prophecy. No other "son" of God was born of a virgin and born into the line of Judah and David. No other "son" of God saved His people from their sins, and even saved the world from our sins. No other "son" of God spoke the way Jesus spoke, nor did any other "son" of God explain the Father and the Holy Spirit to give us understanding, like Jesus did. No other "son" of God was called the power of God and the wisdom of God. No other "son" of God had the angels worship Him at the command of God the Father. No other "son" of God is called the Head of the church, His body. No other "son" of God was willing to shed His blood for the sins of mankind, nor could they. No other "son" of God was without sin.
Yes, Dwight, I fully agree with all these statements!

Yet none of this proves that this "ONLY begotten Son of God" was God Himself!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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