Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:00 pm

John 3:8 - I think it's ultimately a mystery beyond our comprehension or attempts to categorize.

dizerner

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dizerner » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:21 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:53 pm
Jesus was human and yet He was God at the same time.
It is indeed a profound mystery. I wrote some thoughts on this if anyone is interested.

https://forums.carm.org/threads/an-hone ... rian.1956/

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Jesus is God

Post by Homer » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:26 pm

Dizerner,

Thanks for the post and the link! I can't say I disagree with anything you wrote.

commonsense
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:25 pm

Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:45 am

darinhouston wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:00 am
God is spirit and that's how we commune with him and how he works through us.
God doesn't change. He communicated with those in the past the same way he communicates with us today, from the inside as well as the outside.
"Because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made."
commonsense wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:50 pm
The word is very near you in your mouth and in your heart."
Therefore,circumcise your heart and be stiff-necked no longer."
"But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear and are drawn away to worship and serve other gods, you shall surely perish."

"But from there, you will seek the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul."
"Now put away the foreign gods which are among you and incline your heart to the Lord your God."
'As for you, Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and a willing mind."
You honor Me with your lips, but your heart is far from Me."


And Solomon applied his heart to know the wisdom of God.

They may have explained it in different ways: "The Spirit came upon me.", The Lord was with me.", "The Holy Spirit came upon me." , "I met God.", "I came face to face with God."etc.etc.
We say it it many different ways as well: I saw the light., I woke up and smelled the coffee. I had a revelation. I encountered God. etc.etc.
It all means the same thing.
darinhouston wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:00 am
. This was not so with the ancients, though their faith and faithfulness was accounted to them as righteousness, they did not have Christ's righteousness through the spirit like we do.
I definitely read the Bible differently. For them, it was never about going to heaven after we die. It was about creating a heavenly place on earth, bringing the light and the truth of God into a world steeped in paganism, barbarism, tyranny,you name it. Abraham did have a vision (the ability to think about or plan for the future with imagination and wisdom.) He was preparing a place for not only his children, but for the children of the future, "a land flowing with milk and honey.", a land founded on the principles of God. These people moved mountains and endured unspeakable horrors and persecutions to bring the knowledge and truth of God into a dark world that wasn't very cooperative. And I'd say they had to have had an enormous amount of Spirit, and faith to do it.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

How Many Gods are there?

Post by Paidion » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:34 pm

How Many Gods Are There?

Every Christian I have encountered believes that there is one God only.
Many believe that this one God exists as a Trinity of persons. However, all instances in the New Testament of the word θεος (god) preceded by the article (the God) and with no other modifiers, has as its referent the Father alone, and NEVER a Trinity.

Jesus in His prayer to the Father, called Him “the only true God” and in the same sentence referred to Himself as someone other than the only true God.

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (John 17:3 ESV)

If Jesus had said, 'that they know You, Me, and the Holy Spirit as the only true God, then it would be clear that He believed in the Trinity of which He would have been a part

However what Jesus did say, indicates that He believed in only one true God.

Clearly, the apostle Paul also believed that there was only one God—the Father, and did not indicate Jesus as being that one God or part of that one God, but as someone other than that one God:

... for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV)

(There is) one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:6 ESV)

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
(1 Timothy 2:5 ESV)


Elohiym is a plural noun in Hebrew, the singular of which is “Elowahh.” The word “God” frequently appears in the Old Testament in the singular form “Elowahh.” Here is one example:

They refused to obey, And they were not mindful of Your wonders That You did among them. But they hardened their necks, And in their rebellion They appointed a leader To return to their bondage. But You are God (Elowahh), Ready to pardon, Gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, Abundant in kindness, And did not forsake them. (Nehemiah 9:17)

But strangely, the plural form of the word also appears to have been applied to God. Perhaps the most unusual example is found in Psalm 82:1. Here is the Douay translation (A Catholic translation that was published in 1609-1610)

God hath stood in the congregation of gods: and being in the midst of them he judgeth gods.
However, the word “he” doesn't occur in the Hebrew. Without it, the verse would read:

God hath stood in the congregation of gods: and being in the midst of them judgeth gods.

Now the peculiar matter is that in this verse both the first word and the last word is the plural “elohiym.” The second occurrence was translated “gods” in the Douay, whereas the first is translated “God.” Is there any justification in translating the word in these two different ways?
By the way, in the phrase “congregations of gods” a different Hebrew is used for “gods.” It is “el ale.” This is said to mean “god-like ones.”

You may be interested in the way the words appear in the Septuagint, a translation of the Hebrew into Greek around 300 B.C.

ο θεος εστη εν συναγωγη θεων εν μεσω δε θεους διακρινει

Literally in English this would read:
The God is in [the] synagogue of gods and judges gods.
So the translators of the Septuagint, obviously took the first “elohiym” to mean THE God, and the second to mean “gods,” that is, if they were translating from the same Hebrew text. However, they may have been translating from an older form of Hebrew such as was found in cave 4 of the Dead Sea scrolls, and the first word may have been the singular Hebrew word “elowahh.”
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:50 am

Matthew 23:37 - These are the words of Jesus, yet He is claiming the same authority that only the Father would have.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:57 am

Psalm 45:6-7 - Addressing the Son, the Father says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ... therefore God, your God has anointed You with the oil of joy ..."

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:21 am

Think about it. If the writer of Hebrews 1:8-9 was simply telling us how great the Father was, then it wouldn't fit the context of the chapter, either before that, or after that. No, the Father is extolling the Son, calling Him God, and commanding all the angels to worship Him. No one is to receive worship, but God alone. To worship any other is idolatry. But somehow, it was okay with the Father than His Son receive equal worship, and even to take His name - God.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:59 pm

I have pointed out before that God is NOT addressing His Son as "God" in Hebrews 1:8.
If He were, then the Greek word would be in the vocative case. But it's not; it's in the nominative case.
Therefore, it is the subject, and should be translated "God is your throne."

Most translators have it wrong. I don't know why.
However, the Diaglot has it right.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:33 pm

God is Your throne? That doesn't even make sense. What does that mean? That He sits on God? Sorry, but I think you got it wrong here. In your zeal to not allow Jesus to be called God, you have created a "translation" that is not even logical.

My Bible says that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, so how can the Father be the Son's throne? I don't think you will find that "God is Jesus' throne" anywhere else in the Bible.

No, I think the translators that have the Father addressing Jesus as "God" have it right. That, at least, makes sense and is also corroborated by tons of other scripture. NO other scripture corroborates your "translation".

Post Reply

Return to “Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology”