Jesus is God
Re: Jesus is God
Ok, just one more post on this detail we are discussing at the moment, and then, if you wish, I'll let you have the last word on it...lest it get even more messy.
Paidion>>>So what does "God" mean, according to God?<<<
Otherness>>>Hmm...I would say, since God has no God, He knows Himself to be that One YHWH. All else that is, is other than Him, and is created. Yes, I would say that this is God's perspective about Himself. But then, of course, we have to deal with this from our perspective...so it gets messy.<<<
Paidion>>>God knowing all these things about Himself, is not God defining Himself. To define a word is to give the meaning of that word.<<<
Your comment here references the wrong paragraph in my last post. Please look again at the first and second paragraph because this is where I discussed God's “definition” of Himself. The last short paragraph of my last was addressing God's perspective of Himself.
Paidion>>>God is certainly the creator of all things, but that does not define Him. For He is much more than that! Thus it is clear that Aquinas was right in saying that God cannot be defined! He can be described in part. But "describing" and "defining" are two different concepts.<<<
I did not use He “is the creator of all things” as a definition of Him. Also, using this statement about Him does not bring clarity to Aquinas' purported statement. I say “purported” because, as I said previously, I do not accept that he meant it the way it appears on the face of it.
We disagree, but we already knew that.
My love to you in Jesus brother.
Paidion>>>So what does "God" mean, according to God?<<<
Otherness>>>Hmm...I would say, since God has no God, He knows Himself to be that One YHWH. All else that is, is other than Him, and is created. Yes, I would say that this is God's perspective about Himself. But then, of course, we have to deal with this from our perspective...so it gets messy.<<<
Paidion>>>God knowing all these things about Himself, is not God defining Himself. To define a word is to give the meaning of that word.<<<
Your comment here references the wrong paragraph in my last post. Please look again at the first and second paragraph because this is where I discussed God's “definition” of Himself. The last short paragraph of my last was addressing God's perspective of Himself.
Paidion>>>God is certainly the creator of all things, but that does not define Him. For He is much more than that! Thus it is clear that Aquinas was right in saying that God cannot be defined! He can be described in part. But "describing" and "defining" are two different concepts.<<<
I did not use He “is the creator of all things” as a definition of Him. Also, using this statement about Him does not bring clarity to Aquinas' purported statement. I say “purported” because, as I said previously, I do not accept that he meant it the way it appears on the face of it.
We disagree, but we already knew that.
My love to you in Jesus brother.
Re: Jesus is God
Thank you for your Christian love.
May you be blessed!
May you be blessed!
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
- dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God
Paidion wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:45 amBALONEY! It is not at all that I "love to quote the church fathers". Nevertheless, the early Christian writers were better able to express spiritual truth than some modern commentators who live over 2000 years later.Dwight wrote:Again, you love to quote the church fathers. I love to quote the scripture, the word of God, rather than the words of men, who can't confirm their words, by quoting from the Bible.
Dwight - It really doesn't matter what early Christian writers (those who were not inspired) expressed or what today's commentators express, UNLESS they are in agreement with the inspired word of God, which was written by the New Testament and Old Testament authors.
"Scripture" is another word for "writing". But I suppose you are using the word to apply to any writing found in what today is called "the Bible".
What basis do you have for calling the writings of the Bible "the word of God"?
Dwight - Steve has taught on this and others too. Christians in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries had, for the most part, agreed on the 39 books of the Old Testament, and the 27 books of the New Testament, even though they were not officially canonized yet. Sure, there were some who disagreed, but the majority of the church prevailed, and eventually the 66 books were canonized.
We've all heard it. The Bible is the inspired Word of God. It is inspired by God in its entirety and is without error.
1. The first question which those with that view must confront is "Which Bible?" The Catholic Bible, the Orthodox Bible, or the Protestant Bible. Although the contents of the New Testament are the same in all three, they all differ as to which writings belong in the Old Testament.
Dwight - Since the New Testament tells us that we are no longer living under the Law, or the Old Covenant, but rather we are living under the New Covenant, isn't it amazing that the Catholic, the Orthodox and the Protestant ALL agree on the New testament's 27 books? I would say that God has watched over His word to preserve it. Although the Old Testament books are not unimportant, the disagreement about what books should be included and what books should not be included, is certainly not as critical.
2. Secondly, how do we know which writings belong in the New Testament? Who chose them, and on what basis were they chosen?
Dwight - Steve has a thorough teaching on this topic, which is very helpful in answering these questions, and I believe very accurately. So when are we going to return to the topic "Jesus is God"?
- dwight92070
- Posts: 1550
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: Jesus is God
Paidion, I think it is quite obvious which Bible I accept. It is the same Bible that Steve Gregg has taught from since he was 16 - the Bible that contains 66 books, which he has referred to many times, and defended many times. The Bible that he used to call this online exchange a "Bible Forum".
Re: Jesus is God
I presume you refer to the Protestant Bible. Do you reject the Catholic and Orthodox Bibles? If so, what is your basis for doing so?
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
- dwight92070
- Posts: 1550
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: Jesus is God
Dwight - I think the 66-book Bible was existent and accepted long before the words "Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox" were, so why call it any of these? As for the "Catholic" and the "Orthodox" Bibles - the very fact that you have to call it a name that is a denomination vs. just the Bible or the word of God, implies that something has been added (or subtracted), to fit that particular denomination, so I reject them, just on that basis alone.
Dwight - But how does any of this show that Jesus is not God, since that is what you believe?
- dwight92070
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- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: Jesus is God
By the way, I do not refer to the Bible that I read as a Protestant Bible. I would find that offensive, for the same reasons I gave in my last post. It implies that the text has been altered to fit in with Protestant beliefs, or that books have been added or subtracted for the same purpose, which I do not
believe happened.
believe happened.
- dwight92070
- Posts: 1550
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: Jesus is God
"If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; BUT HE HAS A MORBID INTEREST IN CONTROVERSIAL QUESTIONS AND DISPUTES ABOUT WORDS, OUT OF WHICH ARISE ENVY, STRIFE, ABUSIVE LANGUAGE, EVIL SUSPICIONS, AND CONSTANT FRICTION between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain." 1 Timothy 6:3-5
I believe this is where we're at when we dispute about whether God can define Himself or whether it's "born" or "begotten". I admit that I participated in those topics, but, by God's grace, I will no more. Obviously, there is such a thing as a good argument, where there is back and forth. Jesus and Paul engaged in such. But when "disputes about words or a morbid interest in controversial questions" occur, then no one is helped, no one is benefited. When a topic is presented, and there's no perceivable reason for it, other than to display one's "superior" knowledge, or because someone loves to "dispute about words", then we have crossed a line from edification to "the deeds of the flesh".
Again, I do not claim total innocence in this area. Please forgive me for the times that I have crossed that line. I want to edify, not simply win an argument, or try to display my "superior" knowledge. I do not have superior knowledge. Are we not all equal before God, saved by Jesus, and filled with the Holy Spirit? Someone said, "We are all on the same level, at the foot of the cross." Yes, we love to debate, but sometimes our love for debating is greater than our love for our fellow believers or for God Himself.
I believe this is where we're at when we dispute about whether God can define Himself or whether it's "born" or "begotten". I admit that I participated in those topics, but, by God's grace, I will no more. Obviously, there is such a thing as a good argument, where there is back and forth. Jesus and Paul engaged in such. But when "disputes about words or a morbid interest in controversial questions" occur, then no one is helped, no one is benefited. When a topic is presented, and there's no perceivable reason for it, other than to display one's "superior" knowledge, or because someone loves to "dispute about words", then we have crossed a line from edification to "the deeds of the flesh".
Again, I do not claim total innocence in this area. Please forgive me for the times that I have crossed that line. I want to edify, not simply win an argument, or try to display my "superior" knowledge. I do not have superior knowledge. Are we not all equal before God, saved by Jesus, and filled with the Holy Spirit? Someone said, "We are all on the same level, at the foot of the cross." Yes, we love to debate, but sometimes our love for debating is greater than our love for our fellow believers or for God Himself.
Re: Jesus is God
How do you know the 66 books of the Protestant Bible are the correct ones?Dwight you wrote:Dwight - I think the 66-book Bible was existent and accepted long before the words "Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox" were, so why call it any of these? As for the "Catholic" and the "Orthodox" Bibles - the very fact that you have to call it a name that is a denomination vs. just the Bible or the word of God, implies that something has been added (or subtracted), to fit that particular denomination, so I reject them, just on that basis alone.
The Catholic Bible contains these 66 books as well as the following ones: Baruch, Tobit, Ecclesiasticus, and Wisdom of Solomon.
The Orthodox Bible contains all the books of the Catholic Bible plus Psalm 151 and 3 Maccabees.
These books have not been "added to fit that particular denomination": they have been in existence as long or longer than the 66 books of the Protestant Bible. So why have you chosen to accept only the 66 books of the Protestant Bible? On what basis do you reject the others?
Do they not "fit" your particular denomination?
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.