Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 2573
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:21 pm

Homer, before I try to digest that, I don't see a reference to theotetos in any of those texts.

Also, I believe you had already cited some authorities, but I didn't see how they answered that question either. I could be mistaken, but I don't believe you ever responded to my follow-up question, here....

https://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... tos#p81152

Seeker
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:47 pm

Re: Jesus is God

Post by Seeker » Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:30 pm

Paidion wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:34 pm
"The doctrine of the Trinity" is found nowhere in the New Testament.
It appears that Tertullian may have been the first to teach it (in the 3rd century).
Interesting. If true, it seems the burden of proof is assuredly on the Trinity advocates to prove their side.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2822
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Jesus is God

Post by Homer » Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:03 pm

Paidion wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:34 pm
"The doctrine of the Trinity" is found nowhere in the New Testament.
It appears that Tertullian may have been the first to teach it (in the 3rd century).
Interesting. If true, it seems the burden of proof is assuredly on the Trinity advocates to prove their side.
I would dispute that last assertion. Belief in a Trinity is held by the vast majority of Christians. The idea of the Trinity, IMO, best explains the numerous scriptures that are difficult to understand otherwise, such as the numerous references to the pre-incarnate Christ's role in creation such as here:

Colossians 1:15-18
New American Standard Bible 1995
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.


And here is another that needs explanation:

Acts 20:28
New American Standard Bible 1995
28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

So how does an impersonal Holy Spirit make overseers? Why didn't Paul just say God? No problem here for the Trinitarian. (It should be noted that some translations add Son in reference to the blood but "son" is not in the Greek)

It is a bit misleading, though true, to reference Tertullian as 3rd century. Tertullian was born about 155AD, less than a century after most of the apostles were alive. Ignatius, who is said to have been a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote in the introduction to his letter to the Ephesians as follows:
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, most happy, being being blessed in the greatness and fullness of the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected though the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 2573
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:05 pm

Homer wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:03 pm
I would dispute that last assertion. Belief in a Trinity is held by the vast majority of Christians. The idea of the Trinity, IMO, best explains the numerous scriptures that are difficult to understand otherwise, such as the numerous references to the pre-incarnate Christ's role in creation such as here:
Homer, you do realize Arius (and many Unitarians) have believed in a pre-incarnate Christ, don't you? Though many might not (and have not) that particular issue is not particularly Trinitarian.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5280
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:32 pm

Homer wrote:It is a bit misleading, though true, to reference Tertullian as 3rd century. Tertullian was born about 155AD, less than a century after most of the apostles were alive.
The information that I have, is that Tertullian was born in 160 AD and died in 220 AD. Thus the final third of his life (20 years) was spent in the third century.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

commonsense
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:25 pm

Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:27 pm

Homer wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:03 pm
The idea of the Trinity, IMO, best explains the numerous scriptures that are difficult to understand otherwise, such as the numerous references to the pre-incarnate Christ's role in creation such as here:

Colossians 1:15-18
New American Standard Bible 1995
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Yes, Jesus was the image of the invisible God, but He was not the only one " made in the image of God.", nor was He the only Christ( God's anointed).

I think Colossians 1:16-18 is poetic. But with all the Hes and Hims, it's hard to say what He or Him is being referred to.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5280
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:45 pm

Common Sense wrote:I think Colossians 1:16-18 is poetic. But with all the Hes and Hims, it's hard to say what He or Him is being referred to.
In Greek the word is not "he" or "him" but rather "who" or "whom". And if you begin at verse 3, it is very clear that it refers to Jesus, the anointed one! What follows is Young's Literal Translation:

3 ¶ We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, always praying for you,
4 having heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love that is to all the saints,
5 because of the hope that is laid up for you in the heavens, which ye heard of before in the word of the truth of the good news,
6 which is present to you, as also in all the world, and is bearing fruit, as also in you, from the day in which ye heard, and knew the grace of God in truth;
7 as ye also learned from Epaphras, our beloved fellow-servant, who is for you a faithful ministrant of the Christ,
8 who also did declare to us your love in the Spirit.
9 ¶ Because of this, we also, from the day in which we heard, do not cease praying for you, and asking that ye may be filled with the full knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding,
10 to your walking worthily of the Lord to all pleasing, in every good work being fruitful, and increasing to the knowledge of God,
11 in all might being made mighty according to the power of His glory, to all endurance and long-suffering with joy.
12 ¶ Giving thanks to the Father who did make us meet for the participation of the inheritance of the saints in the light,
13 who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate us into the reign of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,
15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
18 And himself is the head of the body — the assembly — who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things  — himself — first,
19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself — having made peace through the blood of his cross — through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
21 And you — once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile,
22 in the body of his flesh through the death, to present you holy, and unblemished, and unblameable before himself,
23 if also ye remain in the faith, being founded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the good news, which ye heard, which was preached in all the creation that is under the heaven, of which I became — I Paul — a ministrant.
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and do fill up the things lacking of the tribulations of the Christ in my flesh for his body, which is the assembly,
25 of which I — I did become a ministrant according to the dispensation of God, that was given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God,
26 the secret that hath been hid from the ages and from the generations, but now was manifested to his saints,
27 to whom God did will to make known what is the riches of the glory of this secret among the nations — which is Christ in you, the hope of the glory,
28 whom we proclaim, warning every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus...
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

commonsense
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:25 pm

Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:12 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:45 pm
In Greek the word is not "he" or "him" but rather "who" or "whom". And if you begin at verse 3, it is very clear that it refers to Jesus, the anointed one!
Paidion, I don't think this refers to Jesus only. There were others before and after Jesus who were anointed by God. Members of the body of Christ are anointed.

By whom and for who is the question. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth for all His creatures. This includes MAN, who was made in His image. The man who is made in God's image is the firstborn of all creation and inherits the things of God, that which God has made for him.
There were people before and after Jesus who were made in the image of God. Being born of the Spirit means you are made in God's image.

Besides this, man creates things as well. So who are we creating things for? I'd say that those born of the Spirit create things through God for the glory of God and for other people. Or you could say that we create things out of love for God and out of love for others.

dwight92070
Posts: 932
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:07 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:12 pm


The man who is made in God's image is the firstborn of all creation

Dwight - There's only ONE firstborn of all creation - Jesus. He was the first to be raised from the dead with a glorified body, which is the meaning of "firstborn of all creation".

Besides this, man creates things as well.

Dwight - God alone creates things out of nothing. We "create" in the sense that we use the things that He created to make art, build things, invent things, come up with new ideas, etc. We never have nor will we ever create things as God did.

dwight92070
Posts: 932
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:38 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:39 pm


Steven, I believe that what the writers of the New Testament are saying is that Jesus is not the founder of the new covenant ( "My words are not My own."), but a teacher or messenger of the eternal covenant of God that was known from the beginning.

Dwight - You are mistaken again. If the New Covenant was the same as the covenant that God gave to Abraham, then it wouldn't be called a New Covenant. Jesus said, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." If Jesus had not shed His blood, there would be no new covenant. True, Abraham was saved by faith, as we are, but the new covenant was not instituted in his day.

The new covenant was the same everlasting covenant given to Abraham. (This is INCORRECT) And although Abraham was not the founder, he is considered the Father of it. (Also INCORRECT)

Dwight - Abraham was not the Father of any covenant. The Bible says that he was "the father of all who believe without being circumcised, ... and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised." Romans 4:11-12

Post Reply

Return to “Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology”