Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:11 am

The Bible is clear that the object of our faith must be God, and it also says that Jesus is the object of our faith. Neither God nor Jesus need faith since they themselves are the object of our faith. I believe that Jesus is God. It has been said that Jesus prayed with faith to the Father, but if you look at Jesus' prayers, especially John 17, there is no expression or mention of faith. Only expressions of loving requests to the Father and submission to His will. Some might say that Jesus had faith that His requests would be granted, that is things hoped for and things not seen (Hebrews 11:1) But Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was. There was nothing that He needed to hope for and nothing that He had not already seen. That's like saying that God hoped for and had not seen the heavens and the earth before He created them out of nothing. God had faith? No, I don't think so.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:51 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:11 am
The Bible is clear that the object of our faith must be God, and it also says that Jesus is the object of our faith. Neither God nor Jesus need faith since they themselves are the object of our faith. I believe that Jesus is God. It has been said that Jesus prayed with faith to the Father, but if you look at Jesus' prayers, especially John 17, there is no expression or mention of faith. Only expressions of loving requests to the Father and submission to His will. Some might say that Jesus had faith that His requests would be granted, that is things hoped for and things not seen (Hebrews 11:1) But Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was. There was nothing that He needed to hope for and nothing that He had not already seen. That's like saying that God hoped for and had not seen the heavens and the earth before He created them out of nothing. God had faith? No, I don't think so.
I still maintain that Jesus had faith in the Father and lived by His Spirit. But, the logic also simply can't be used consistently. For instance, you acknowledge that Jesus did submit to the Father's will. God also doesn't submit to another anymore than he needs faith. I believe there is a reason this is a fairly novel approach to proving Jesus is God. Also, God doesn't grow in stature and knowledge and so forth - you answer that by kenosis but your use of that seems quite selective and arbitrary.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:18 am

It looks like Aquinas discussed this. This is a good article disagreeing with Aquinas.

http://www.travisdickinson.com/did-jesu ... ave-faith/

A commenter raised this verse as well and notes: "Just to bolster the point that Jesus indeed had faith, I would cite 1 Peter 2:23, where, even though the word “faith” is not used in any translation I could see (http://biblehub.com/1_peter/2-23.htm), the verse makes it clear that he had faith in God: When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly (ESV). The greek word paradidómi is used for the phrase “but continued entrusting”, which means to “hand over, pledge, commit, commend”. Good post"

dizerner

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dizerner » Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:35 pm

He didn't answer kenosis, I did. :roll:

https://forums.carm.org/threads/an-hone ... rian.1956/

https://forums.carm.org/threads/confess ... -5-8.6465/

https://forums.carm.org/threads/functio ... tion.8951/


Yes, Jesus had everything a human being has, including faith and a God he worshiped.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:24 pm

dizerner wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:35 pm
He didn't answer kenosis, I did. :roll:

https://forums.carm.org/threads/an-hone ... rian.1956/

https://forums.carm.org/threads/confess ... -5-8.6465/

https://forums.carm.org/threads/functio ... tion.8951/


Yes, Jesus had everything a human being has, including faith and a God he worshiped.
I only briefly scanned those, though I can tell they are thoughtful and honest attempts to understand God's revelation - I look forward to reading and contemplating them.

dizerner

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dizerner » Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:31 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:24 pm
I only briefly scanned those, though I can tell they are thoughtful and honest attempts to understand God's revelation - I look forward to reading and contemplating them.
Thanks, would be interested in your feedback.

Lots of "pushback" on there, lol.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:33 am

Remember how Israel rejected God as their king? They wanted an earthly king. Well today, the true Israel, the church, has God as their king again. Peter said that we are a holy nation, as ethnic Israel once was, but the kingdom of God was taken away from them and given to a nation that produces the fruit that God is looking for. Jesus, God in the flesh, is our king.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:46 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:33 am
Remember how Israel rejected God as their king? They wanted an earthly king. Well today, the true Israel, the church, has God as their king again. Peter said that we are a holy nation, as ethnic Israel once was, but the kingdom of God was taken away from them and given to a nation that produces the fruit that God is looking for. Jesus, God in the flesh, is our king.

Remember how Israel missed Jesus being the Messiah because they had a flawed understanding of their scriptures and the nature or type of messiah they were looking for? Well, isn't it possible that today the true Israel, the church, also has the wrong view of the nature of who the Messiah is? Jesus is, indeed, our King. They merely inferred that he would be a warrior king and political ruler. You merely infer that he is God. At least we all agree today that he is the man who was prophesied to be anointed by God to our king.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:24 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:46 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:33 am
Remember how Israel rejected God as their king? They wanted an earthly king. Well today, the true Israel, the church, has God as their king again. Peter said that we are a holy nation, as ethnic Israel once was, but the kingdom of God was taken away from them and given to a nation that produces the fruit that God is looking for. Jesus, God in the flesh, is our king.

Remember how Israel missed Jesus being the Messiah because they had a flawed understanding of their scriptures and the nature or type of messiah they were looking for?

Dwight - God has always had a remnant of people who love Him and have faith in Him. Joseph and Mary, Simeon and Hannah, Zacharias and Elizabeth, John the Baptist, Lazarus, Mary, and Martha, the many who followed Jesus and believed in Him, the 120 in the upper room, and the thousands converted after hearing Peter, and later Paul, etc. Those who "missed Jesus being their Messiah", for the most part, had a heart issue, not simply a flawed understanding of their scriptures and of the nature of the Messiah. They were not part of the remnant who were saved by faith in Jesus. I think the remnant came to believe, rather quickly, that Jesus was God in the flesh. Isaiah, Micah, Matthew, John, Thomas, Peter, Paul, the one leper out of the ten who were healed, the demoniac who lived in caves, who was delivered by Jesus, the Samaritan woman and the people in her town, all knew clearly and even said that Jesus was God. The remnant knew who He was, maybe not immediately, but soon after encountering Him. Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."

Well, isn't it possible that today the true Israel, the church, also has the wrong view of the nature of who the Messiah is?

Dwight - It may be possible for a short time, but the Father will reveal it to them, as they sincerely seek to follow Him and His word.

Jesus is, indeed, our King. They merely inferred that he would be a warrior king and political ruler. You merely infer that he is God.

Dwight - Reading God's word does not lead me to a mere inference that Jesus is God. It states that truth over and over again.

At least we all agree today that he is the man who was prophesied to be anointed by God to our king.

Dwight - "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; ..." Colossians 2:9

Otherness
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Otherness » Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:37 pm

darinhouston>>>“you can't have that answer to the problem, on the one hand, and then, on the other hand, appeal to omniscience or a lack of need for faith or other manifestations of just "being God" while enfleshed.”<<<

otherness>>>Please, so that I may be pertinent in my response, elaborate on this objection of yours : “you can't have that answer to the problem, on the one hand, and then, on the other hand, appeal to omniscience or a lack of need for faith or other manifestations of just "being God" while enfleshed.”<<<

dizerner>>>I think his objection really only applies to the teaching of a lot of classical theology, where God's attributes prevent him from any true kenosis. Do we really know what God can or cannot do, and how can we deduce what God can or cannot do from Scripture? "Is anything too hard for the Lord?" seems to explicitly tell us that our own limitations on God will fail. If God wanted to for a time no longer function in some of his attributes, who are we to define him as not able to. Otherwise the normal defense is basically half of God didn't know and half of God did, which doesn't seem honest for Jesus to say "I don't know" something, since he didn't specify "Part of me doesn't know something." Then we are separating the human Jesus from the identity of the Son of God, and this is why the Hypostatic Union fails to Biblically describe Christ's identity for me.<<<

Darin, being not clear on exactly what your counterpoint is, I'll assume it's something along the line Dizerner draws. In that we are contingent beings we are ontologically dependent upon, and invested in, the “attributes” of being : we derive our identity from what we are, not that we are. This is a natural intuition for us, but it is a handicap when it comes to understanding and “explaining” God.

God, in His essence, is not identified [neither dependent upon, nor (necessarily?) invested] in His “attributes.” Remove the whole of Creation from the equation and God is simply (still) Who He IS : I AM. HE is ontologically (sovereignly) free, with or without Creation, to simply BE : I AM. This quality of Being is foreign to us, that is, we have no natural intuition for it, and our thinking in this category necessarily defaults to our own ontology. However, sticking faithfully to His revelation of Himself we “understand” this quality of His Being : He (simply) IS : He IS That He IS! That is, being I AM fully identifies Who (What) He IS : this is what YHWH communicates (reveals).

As you know, my witness is that “the Trinity” is the creative state of YHWH. Our Creator exists as He does because THIS is how He creates that particular reality that He desires ; the Body of Christ. The “Logos,” from First to Last, is the whole trajectory of Creation yielding, finally, “created i ams” in His Express Image.

The Father is I AM, the SON is I AM, and YHWH still is Who He simply IS : (Holy) Spirit, I AM. This I AM Who is (the) Son, Who “needs” no attributes to be Who He is, clothed Himself (His naked I AM) with the “attribute” of being a (created) “i am.” In doing this, God, from within Creation, where we have our beings, completes the creative trajectory of the Logos : thus are we (truly, ontologically) free (by being partakers of the Divine Nature) to be what HE desires (has predestined) us to be. He has done the work, from first to last, and we are His Magnum Opus : the Body of Christ.

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