Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:47 pm

Paidion wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:28 pm
Dwight you wrote:Remember the apostle John said of Jesus, that He "was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." John 5:18
I do remember that. And that is one of the many NT proofs that your assertion (that Jesus is God) is false.
Jesus was EQUAL with God—that is, equally divine, just as you are equal with your father, that is, equally human.
Dwight - That's not what that verse says. John says He was equal with God. John did not say He was equally divine with God. Also, you are using a different meaning of the word "divine" than most use when referring to Christ's divinity. It's a valid meaning, but there's no scriptural evidence that shows that your preferred meaning describes Christ.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:45 pm

If John did not mean that Jesus was equally divine with God, then what did he mean?

He certainly didn't mean that calling God his father was tantamount to BEING God.
If he had wanted to say that Jesus WAS God, he would have said it, rather than saying he was equal with God.

If I wanted to tell people that you are Dwight, I certainly wouldn't tell them that you are EQUAL to Dwight.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:28 pm

Good grief, we've been over this passage so many times. John is not expressing his own opinion here -- he is explaining the perspective of the Pharisees (who were wrong about almost everything). If you apply a consistent hermeneutic, he also said "he broke the Sabbath." Surely, you don't also think that John believed that Jesus "broke" the Sabbath, do you?

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:38 am

darinhouston wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:28 pm
Good grief, we've been over this passage so many times. John is not expressing his own opinion here -- he is explaining the perspective of the Pharisees (who were wrong about almost everything). If you apply a consistent hermeneutic, he also said "he broke the Sabbath." Surely, you don't also think that John believed that Jesus "broke" the Sabbath, do you?
Dwight - Good grief is right. YES, JOHN IS EXPRESSING HIS OWN OPINION HERE. YES, AND JOHN ALSO BELIEVED THAT JESUS BROKE THE SABBATH!! Of course He broke the Sabbath and other laws as well. He is the Lord of the Sabbath - He had no obligation to keep it. Was it lawful to work on the Sabbath? No, did Jesus work on the Sabbath? HE SAID THAT HE DID! HE SAID THAT MY FATHER IS WORKING UNTIL NOW (THAT WAS A SABBATH DAY) AND I MYSELF AM WORKING. Is it lawful to make clay on the Sabbath to apply to a blind man's eyes? No, but Jesus did it. Was it lawful on a Sabbath day to tell a healed lame man to PICK UP HIS MAT AND LEAVE? NO, BUT JESUS DID THAT TOO. Was it lawful to heal on the Sabbath? No, but Jesus did that anyway. Was it lawful for His disciples to pick the grain and rub it in their hands to remove the chaff, on a Sabbath day? No, but Jesus defended His disciples for doing just that. Did He condemn the Jews for getting their ox out of a pit on the Sabbath day? No, but that was definitely work. Did He condemn the Jews for leading their animals away to water them on the Sabbath day. No, but that too was work.

Dwight - The argument that Jesus could not have broken any law, because then He would be a sinner is just plain ignorant. Again, He was the author of the law, He was Lord of the law, including the Sabbath Day. Does that mean that He could commit adultery? or covet? Of course not, then He would be guilty of sin. The laws He broke were not moral laws, so He did not sin. He was, among other things (like healing people), showing the Jews that the ceremonial laws were about to be considered obsolete, as He brought in the New Covenant. The Sabbath day was a ceremonial law, not a moral law. He also broke civil laws by overturning tables in the Temple. Was that a sin? Of course not, it was His Father's house.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:23 am

Paidion wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:45 pm
If John did not mean that Jesus was equally divine with God, then what did he mean?

Dwight - This doesn't take a rocket scientist. John meant He was God.

He certainly didn't mean that calling God his father was tantamount to BEING God.
If he had wanted to say that Jesus WAS God, he would have said it, rather than saying he was equal with God.

Dwight - Somehow you have the inside scoop on how John would tell us that Jesus is God, if that's what he wanted to say. Sorry, but you have absolutely NO WAY of knowing that.

Dwight - Your reasoning is faulty anyway. The following issue parallels your faulty reasoning with what John said. Going by your reasoning, if Jesus had wanted to tell people that He was the Christ, He would have said it. Wrong! He spent most of His ministry AVOIDING THAT CLAIM. He did say it on maybe three occasions, but He did not broadcast it. It appears that the Holy Spirit led the apostles in a similar way, because they didn't repeatedly write: JESUS IS GOD, JESUS IS GOD, JESUS IS GOD. John's statement is a prime example. Instead of saying "JESUS WAS GOD", he said He made Himself equal with God, giving you non-Trinitarians something to debate about. But there's no need to debate it because we know exactly what he meant. Look at the following statement.

Dwight - We don't have to guess what John meant, because John tells us on several occasions that the Jews wanted to kill Him for blasphemy. "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." John 10:33 Clearly, John saying that He made Himself equal to God, means he was claiming TO BE GOD.

Dwight - But you probably will not respond to this, because it clearly reveals the truth. Maybe this would be a good time to totally change the subject or talk about proper grammar or maybe - crickets, as you are wont to do.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:42 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:38 am
darinhouston wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:28 pm
Good grief, we've been over this passage so many times. John is not expressing his own opinion here -- he is explaining the perspective of the Pharisees (who were wrong about almost everything). If you apply a consistent hermeneutic, he also said "he broke the Sabbath." Surely, you don't also think that John believed that Jesus "broke" the Sabbath, do you?
Dwight - Good grief is right. YES, JOHN IS EXPRESSING HIS OWN OPINION HERE. YES, AND JOHN ALSO BELIEVED THAT JESUS BROKE THE SABBATH!! Of course He broke the Sabbath and other laws as well. He is the Lord of the Sabbath - He had no obligation to keep it. Was it lawful to work on the Sabbath? No, did Jesus work on the Sabbath? HE SAID THAT HE DID! HE SAID THAT MY FATHER IS WORKING UNTIL NOW (THAT WAS A SABBATH DAY) AND I MYSELF AM WORKING. Is it lawful to make clay on the Sabbath to apply to a blind man's eyes? No, but Jesus did it. Was it lawful on a Sabbath day to tell a healed lame man to PICK UP HIS MAT AND LEAVE? NO, BUT JESUS DID THAT TOO. Was it lawful to heal on the Sabbath? No, but Jesus did that anyway. Was it lawful for His disciples to pick the grain and rub it in their hands to remove the chaff, on a Sabbath day? No, but Jesus defended His disciples for doing just that. Did He condemn the Jews for getting their ox out of a pit on the Sabbath day? No, but that was definitely work. Did He condemn the Jews for leading their animals away to water them on the Sabbath day. No, but that too was work.

Dwight - The argument that Jesus could not have broken any law, because then He would be a sinner is just plain ignorant. Again, He was the author of the law, He was Lord of the law, including the Sabbath Day. Does that mean that He could commit adultery? or covet? Of course not, then He would be guilty of sin. The laws He broke were not moral laws, so He did not sin. He was, among other things (like healing people), showing the Jews that the ceremonial laws were about to be considered obsolete, as He brought in the New Covenant. The Sabbath day was a ceremonial law, not a moral law. He also broke civil laws by overturning tables in the Temple. Was that a sin? Of course not, it was His Father's house.
You might want to research this a bit - I don't think Jesus "broke" the Sabbath. He broke their position on the Sabbath, but Jesus made clear it wasn't "broken" if it was in the spirit of why it was given and by the one who has given authority over it (himself).

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:45 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:23 am
Paidion wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:45 pm
If John did not mean that Jesus was equally divine with God, then what did he mean?

Dwight - This doesn't take a rocket scientist. John meant He was God.

He certainly didn't mean that calling God his father was tantamount to BEING God.
If he had wanted to say that Jesus WAS God, he would have said it, rather than saying he was equal with God.

Dwight - Somehow you have the inside scoop on how John would tell us that Jesus is God, if that's what he wanted to say. Sorry, but you have absolutely NO WAY of knowing that.

Dwight - Your reasoning is faulty anyway. The following issue parallels your faulty reasoning with what John said. Going by your reasoning, if Jesus had wanted to tell people that He was the Christ, He would have said it. Wrong! He spent most of His ministry AVOIDING THAT CLAIM. He did say it on maybe three occasions, but He did not broadcast it. It appears that the Holy Spirit led the apostles in a similar way, because they didn't repeatedly write: JESUS IS GOD, JESUS IS GOD, JESUS IS GOD. John's statement is a prime example. Instead of saying "JESUS WAS GOD", he said He made Himself equal with God, giving you non-Trinitarians something to debate about. But there's no need to debate it because we know exactly what he meant. Look at the following statement.

Dwight - We don't have to guess what John meant, because John tells us on several occasions that the Jews wanted to kill Him for blasphemy. "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." John 10:33 Clearly, John saying that He made Himself equal to God, means he was claiming TO BE GOD.

Dwight - But you probably will not respond to this, because it clearly reveals the truth. Maybe this would be a good time to totally change the subject or talk about proper grammar or maybe - crickets, as you are wont to do.
You seriously think I'm "wont" to do crickets? That's ridiculous. I tend to ignore your posts when they are too irrational or off-topic or abusive to warrant response, not when they are good points I can't answer or which I think reveals truth I don't like.

I do think grammar is helpful in understanding the meaning of literature. You have made a number of declaratory and inflammatory statements in opposition to my position, but you haven't explained how you justify it. I guess that requires grammar and reason. So, we're at an impass.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:29 pm

Paidion wrote:If John did not mean that Jesus was equally divine with God, then what did he mean?
Dwight wrote:Dwight - This doesn't take a rocket scientist. John meant He was God.
Applying your reasoning to yourself:
"Since you are equally human with your father, this means that you are your father."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:42 pm

Paidion wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:29 pm
Paidion wrote:If John did not mean that Jesus was equally divine with God, then what did he mean?
Dwight wrote:Dwight - This doesn't take a rocket scientist. John meant He was God.
Applying your reasoning to yourself:
"Since you are equally human with your father, this means that you are your father."
Since Jesus made Himself equal to God His Father, this means that Jesus is God His father.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:16 pm

WHAT??? You believe that Jesus IS his father?

Jesus said:
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said to me, so I speak.
(John 12:50)


"As the Father said to me" Was Jesus talking to himself?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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