Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:56 pm

...to the glory of God the Father...
https://restitutio.org/2016/03/04/should-we-worship-jesus wrote:In light of Phil 2:9-11 and Hebrews 1:6, Patrick Navas writes, “In fact, it would be fair to say—in accord with Scripture—that the worship, honor, glory and respect attributed to Christ is something that God not only allows but commands, is pleasing to him, and God himself is glorified in this…Yet the honor and adoration given to Christ is, in the ultimate sense, an honor and adoration given through Christ to the Father, the ultimate source of every blessing in Christ.” [4] (1 Peter 4:11; Hebrews 13:15)

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Homer
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Homer » Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:44 pm

Yet the honor and adoration given to Christ is, in the ultimate sense, an honor and adoration given through Christ to the Father, the ultimate source of every blessing in Christ.” [4] (1 Peter 4:11; Hebrews 13:15)
I do not see any reference to worship of Christ in the texts cited. By the same logic couldn't prayer to Mary or the "Saints" be seen as directed to the Father?

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:46 am

Homer wrote:
Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:44 pm
Yet the honor and adoration given to Christ is, in the ultimate sense, an honor and adoration given through Christ to the Father, the ultimate source of every blessing in Christ.” [4] (1 Peter 4:11; Hebrews 13:15)
I do not see any reference to worship of Christ in the texts cited. By the same logic couldn't prayer to Mary or the "Saints" be seen as directed to the Father?
I think that depends on what you mean by "worship." It's clear that we are to give Jesus the type of adoration and obeisance due a Lord or King. Worshipping him as God if he is not would be idolatry. But, worshipping him as King and Lord (as they did David and many others for example, though more deserving of higher honor for sure) would not be idolatry. There are a good number of verses discussing proskuneo worship of Jesus and the honor and adoration and submission is part of that. There is no clear text showing religious worship to Jesus "as God" however.

Interestingly, notice this passage about worshipping Yahweh as they worshipped David:
Then King David said to the entire assembly... Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless YAHWEH your God." And all the assembly blessed YAHWEH, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and WORSHIPED YAHWEH and the King.... Then Solomon sat on the Throne of YAHWEH as King instead of David his father; and he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him. All the officials, the mighty men, and also all the sons of King David pledged allegiance to King Solomon. (1 Chronicles 29).
As to prayer to Mary and Saints, prayer is personal and we might pray "through" a mediator to the Father, Jesus alone is that mediator. Other types of prayer would be personal communication and as I see it is either forbidden in scripture or is futile.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:12 am

We know from Isaiah 44:6, that God is "the first and the last". Yet in Revelation 1:17 and Rev. 2:8, we see Jesus being called "the first and the last". Yet in those same passages, the first and the last says that He was dead, but now is alive.

How is it possible that God, the first and the last, could have died, and yet now is alive forevermore?

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:40 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:12 am
We know from Isaiah 44:6, that God is "the first and the last". Yet in Revelation 1:17 and Rev. 2:8, we see Jesus being called "the first and the last". Yet in those same passages, the first and the last says that He was dead, but now is alive.

How is it possible that God, the first and the last, could have died, and yet now is alive forevermore?
One way it would be possible is if it is a figure of speech that is not a unique title ascribed only to God. God was clearly the "First and the Last" (we might say "the be all and end all" in our vernacular). But, if he has given that authority and role for our creation over to Jesus (who said his authority came from his father) then it might well be rightly applied to Jesus in that context.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:47 am

The context of Isaiah makes it clear to me that it IS a unique title:

"I am the first and the last, AND THERE IS NO GOD BESIDES ME." "WHO IS LIKE ME? LET HIM PROCLAIM AND DECLARE IT. YES, LET HIM RECOUNT IT TO ME IN ORDER, FROM THE TIME THAT I ESTABLISHED THE ANCIENT NATION." " ... AND YOU ARE MY WITNESSES, IS THERE ANY GOD BESIDES ME, OR IS THERE ANY OTHER ROCK? I KNOW OF NONE. 44:6-8

Other verses in Isaiah make it clear to me that this title, in each case, is reserved for God and no one else. (41:4; 48:12)

Jesus, however, claims the title for Himself in Revelation: (1:17; 2:8; and 22:13)

Also, an equivalent title is "The Alpha and the Omega" found in Rev. 1:8; 21:6; and 22:13

In Rev. 1:8, we see that "the Alpha and the Omega", is a "person" or "being" who is THE SAME AS "the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, THE ALMIGHTY.

So apparently, Jesus, who is the Alpha and the Omega is THE SAME AS "the Lord God" and "the Almighty".

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:56 am

You keep assuming the premise. What is it about the context that convinces you that it’s a unique title.


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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:42 am

Maybe "context" is the wrong word. It's just that in the chapters of Isaiah, especially in the 40's, there is an abundance of verses, where God proclaims that He Himself, is unique or unrivaled or unequaled, that He has no competition. Maybe the word "theme" would better describe what I see there in those chapters. Maybe that's not the only theme, but certainly a prominent one. He ALONE is the first and the last, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. Yet Jesus also claims to be the first and the last. So either Isaiah is mistaken, and the apostle John in Revelation (which was given to him by Jesus) is mistaken, or Jesus Himself is mistaken, OR He must be God.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:59 pm

"I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End" is found ONLY in the New Testament.
We know, of course, that these words were spoken by Jesus and no other.

The begetting of Jesus was the first of God's acts, before all creation. This was Jesus' beginning.
Jesus is the end, in that only He will endure. All of God's creation will end or be destroyed, but never Jesus.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:50 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:59 pm
"I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End" is found ONLY in the New Testament.
We know, of course, that these words were spoken by Jesus and no other.

Dwight - What do you do with Revelation 1:8? "I am the Alpha and the Omega", says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty"

Dwight - If this is Jesus speaking, then He is "the Lord God" and the "Almighty" (Which means He is God). If, on the other hand , this is the Father speaking, then, contrary to what you posted above, the Father ALSO claimed to be the Alpha and the Omega, just as Jesus did in Revelation 22:13. And if they both claimed to be the Alpha and the Omega, then again, Jesus is God. Either way, Jesus is God.


The begetting of Jesus was the first of God's acts, before all creation. This was Jesus' beginning.

Dwight - Just because you say that over and over, that does not make it true. God is eternal. BY DEFINITION, GOD CANNOT HAVE A FIRST ACT.

Jesus is the end, in that only He will endure. All of God's creation will end or be destroyed, but never Jesus

Dwight - What about those of us who follow Him? I don't believe we will end or be destroyed.

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