Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:24 pm

Paidion wrote:I am not sure what you are asking.

εγω εμει (egō emei) (Mark 13:6) literally means "I, I am". It is understood that this means "I am" with an emphasis on "I".
I was trying to be clever out of my depth and say i am not he.


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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:43 pm

He was the "temple" of the Holy Spirit - that Spirit "is" God. That is the sense in which I believe he had the fullness of the spirit in him. The fact that it "dwelt" in him seems to imply it "wasn't" him.

Dwight -That interpretation does not line up with other scripture. The Word, which was God, BECAME FLESH, and dwelt among us. So God became flesh in Jesus and that flesh WAS HE. Jesus did not simply have God dwelling in Him - He was God.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:48 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:43 pm
He was the "temple" of the Holy Spirit - that Spirit "is" God. That is the sense in which I believe he had the fullness of the spirit in him. The fact that it "dwelt" in him seems to imply it "wasn't" him.

Dwight -That interpretation does not line up with other scripture. The Word, which was God, BECAME FLESH, and dwelt among us. So God became flesh in Jesus and that flesh WAS HE. Jesus did not simply have God dwelling in Him - He was God.
Whatever "else" he was or in whatever "context" he can be said to "be God" or "embody God" in some sense, it is hardly disputable that he was indeed thought of as the fulfillment of what the Temple and the Torah merely foreshadowed. I think this answers most of the debate around how he can be said to have "embodied" God by being indwelt with the Holy Spirit in its fullness. But, even if it doesn't answer ALL the questions, it is hardly inconsistent with Scripture. Consider the following for a few examples....

Ezekiel 43:7: “I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever.”
Zechariah 2:10: “I come and I will dwell in your midst.”
John 1:14: “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”
John 2:19, 22: “‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ … he was speaking about the temple of his body.”

I believe this could be what is meant by God being "incarnated" or being "enfleshed" (dwelling with man "in flesh"). But, again, even if it doesn't answer all of those questions, how can you say Jesus wasn't the "Temple" of the "Holy Spirit" and that the Holy Spirit dwelt in Him?

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:25 am

I believe this could be what is meant by God being "incarnated" or being "enfleshed" (dwelling with man "in flesh"). But, again, even if it doesn't answer all of those questions, how can you say Jesus wasn't the "Temple" of the "Holy Spirit" and that the Holy Spirit dwelt in Him?

Dwight - I don't deny that point at all. I DO believe that He was the Temple of the Holy Spirit. But I deny your statement: "The fact that it 'dwelt' in him seems to imply it 'WASN'T' him." There is a scriptural truth that tells us that Jesus IS the Holy Spirit. "Now the Lord IS the Spirit ..." 2 Corinthians 3:17 This may not line up with traditional Trinitarians, but it is scripture. Not only that, but Jesus was the Temple of the fullness of the Godhead as well, and at the same time, He was and is an intricate part of that Godhead.

Dwight - We are told that "Christ Himself" is "God's mystery", "in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." - Colossians 2:2-3 So we can know many things about Him, but we "know in part" I Corinthians 13:9. I think our eyes will be opened when we see Him face-to-face.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:02 am

The traditional doctrine of the Trinity, as I have understood it in the past, is that the three persons, the Father , the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each God, but that the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Son or the Father.

But this doesn't seem to agree with the scripture. Isaiah said that the Son IS the Eternal Father, Paul said that the Lord (Jesus) IS the (Holy) Spirit, and Peter equates the Holy Spirit to God (the Father) in Acts 5:3-4. So, as Steve Gregg says, in one sense, they are separate and distinct: in another sense they are one and the same.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:49 pm

As the Trinitarian song puts it, "God in three Persons—blessed Trinity".

Or WE could say, "Man in 7,900,000,000 persons—crazy humanity!"
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:48 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:49 pm
As the Trinitarian song puts it, "God in three Persons—blessed Trinity".

Or WE could say, "Man in 7,900,000,000 persons—crazy humanity!"
Dwight- There's really no logical parallel in those two statements whatsoever. It's apples and oranges. You seem to be saying that God (singular) existing in three persons is no more complex than man (plural) existing in 7.9 billion persons. But you can't compare God (singular) with man (plural). Or if you want to speak of man (singular), then you would have to say, "Man in one person". There is only one God, so in that sense, He is ALWAYS singular. There are 7.9 billion men, so he could be referred to as either the single man, or man (plural) speaking of all mankind.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:20 am

The way I used "man" is an exact parallel to the way Trinitarians use the word "God".

Though the WORD "God" is singular, Trinitarians consider "God" to refer to one person, but to 3 persons.

The word "man" is also singular. But it can be used in the sense of "mankind" and therefore refer to all 7,900,000,000 persons.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:39 am

"God made us for Himself, that we might know Him, live with Him, and enjoy Him forever." A.W. Tozer

"... what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

We cannot have fellowship with God without having fellowship with His Son. Jesus said, "If God were your Father, you would love Me ..." John 8:42 "...and the one who rejects Me, rejects Him who sent Me ..." Luke 10:16 So, in one sense they are inseparable.

But if Jesus is not God, then we find ourselves having to fellowship with One who is NOT GOD -Jesus, IN ORDER TO fellowship with He Who IS GOD - the Father. This is a huge contradiction.

Imagine the Father asking us: "Do you want to fellowship with Me? That's good, but you can't do that unless you fellowship with this man, WHO IS NOT ME." That sounds ridiculous, because it is.

Remember, we're not talking about fellowship with other believers here, which of course, pleases God. We're speaking of fellowship with God Himself and the Bible tells us that we do that ONLY, by FELLOWSHIPPING WITH HIS SON. If the Son, Jesus, is not God, then this makes no sense. THOSE WHO REJECT THE SON AS GOD, ARE REJECTING THE FATHER AS GOD.

Remember the apostle John said of Jesus, that He "was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." John 5:18

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:28 pm

Dwight you wrote:Remember the apostle John said of Jesus, that He "was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." John 5:18
I do remember that. And that is one of the many NT proofs that your assertion (that Jesus is God) is false.
Jesus was EQUAL with God—that is, equally divine, just as you are equal with your father, that is, equally human.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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