Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Homer
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Homer » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:47 am

Hi Darin,

You wrote:
He was divine as a prince is royal.
A prince is of the same substance as his parents. Do you believe Jesus is of the same substance as God?

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:32 pm

Homer wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:47 am
Hi Darin,

You wrote:
He was divine as a prince is royal.
A prince is of the same substance as his parents. Do you believe Jesus is of the same substance as God?
I challenge your premise -- where do you get this from? Just keeping to my examples, neither Joseph nor Moses were of the same substance as Pharaoh. Having an adopted son, I challenge this strongly.

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Homer
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Homer » Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:29 pm

Dariin,

You wrote:
He was divine as a prince is royal. He was the son of God and adopted in a sense as a true bearer of the right to rule and of the power afforded the ruler
I am not understanding you. Are you saying Jesus was not born of a virgin, that He was an adopted Son, and His relation to the Father is no more than that of Moses to Pharoah?

By "substance" I mean as follows:
Ousia (/ˈuːziə, ˈuːsiə, ˈuːʒə, ˈuːʃə/; Ancient Greek: οὐσία) is an important philosophical and theological term, originally used in ancient Greek philosophy, then later in Christian theology. It was used by various ancient Greek philosophers, like Plato and Aristotle, as a primary designation for philosophical concepts of essence or substance. In contemporary philosophy, it is analogous to English concepts of being and ontic. In Christian theology, the concept of θεία ουσία (divine essence) is one of the most important doctrinal concepts, central to the development of trinitarian doctrine.
You seem to see Jesus as "divine"; can you define what that means to you? Is Jesus "God stuff"?

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:49 pm

Homer wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:29 pm
Dariin,

You wrote:
He was divine as a prince is royal. He was the son of God and adopted in a sense as a true bearer of the right to rule and of the power afforded the ruler
I am not understanding you. Are you saying Jesus was not born of a virgin, that He was an adopted Son, and His relation to the Father is no more than that of Moses to Pharoah?

By "substance" I mean as follows:
Ousia (/ˈuːziə, ˈuːsiə, ˈuːʒə, ˈuːʃə/; Ancient Greek: οὐσία) is an important philosophical and theological term, originally used in ancient Greek philosophy, then later in Christian theology. It was used by various ancient Greek philosophers, like Plato and Aristotle, as a primary designation for philosophical concepts of essence or substance. In contemporary philosophy, it is analogous to English concepts of being and ontic. In Christian theology, the concept of θεία ουσία (divine essence) is one of the most important doctrinal concepts, central to the development of trinitarian doctrine.
You seem to see Jesus as "divine"; can you define what that means to you? Is Jesus "God stuff"?
I don't know exactly what divine means sufficiently to define it. He is in some sense "God stuff" as you say, but we're not told exactly in what way. He was human and born of a human - of a virgin, yes - that was miraculous and special and prevented him from having the human consequences of original sin, had the capacity not to sin from the beginning even before his anointing by the spirit and was able to commune directly with the spirit without the need for a special justification unlike every other human being since Eve - he wasn't adopted as his son (I don't think - though adoptionism has some merit) but was his son from conception as a result of the spirit conceiving him. I guess adopted isn't a perfect word for his elevation - but he did inherit and was granted his status as rightful ruler at the right hand of God.

And by using an analogy as to divinity and royalty does not mean every aspect of those types apply directly to Christ - that's an unreasonable position for you to take.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:04 pm

Darin, yes God is distinguished from the Lamb, just like the Father is distinguished from the Son and the Holy Spirit in the Trinity. No surprise there. They are distinct, yet they are God.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:05 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:04 pm
Darin, yes God is distinguished from the Lamb, just like the Father is distinguished from the Son and the Holy Spirit in the Trinity. No surprise there. They are distinct, yet they are God.
But, unlike the Father and the Spirit. They are distinguished from each other, but are never distinguished from God. Never do you see anything approaching "God and the Spirit" or "God and the Father". They are distinguished from each other, but not from God. The Lamb is.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:45 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:05 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:04 pm
Darin, yes God is distinguished from the Lamb, just like the Father is distinguished from the Son and the Holy Spirit in the Trinity. No surprise there. They are distinct, yet they are God.
But, unlike the Father and the Spirit. They are distinguished from each other, but are never distinguished from God. Never do you see anything approaching "God and the Spirit" or "God and the Father". They are distinguished from each other, but not from God. The Lamb is.
Dwight - First of all, we know that the Lamb is Jesus. Revelation 5:9 makes that very clear. Jesus clearly identifies Himself as "the first and the last" (Revelation 1:17-18 and 2:8), which is a title that God uses for Himself in the Old Testament (Isaiah 44:6). So the Lamb is not distinguished from God, considering the whole of the Bible. He might be in Revelation 5, but when He is worshiped equally with God, that distinction disappears, and we realize that both are God. Of course the Father and the Spirit are never distinguished from God, because they are God. So each member of the Trinity is distinct and yet each is God. Also, in another sense, it seems as though each is the other.

Otherness
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Otherness » Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:26 am

Dwight >>>Darin, yes God is distinguished from the Lamb, just like the Father is distinguished from the Son and the Holy Spirit in the Trinity. No surprise there. They are distinct, yet they are God.<<<

Darinhouston>>>But, unlike the Father and the Spirit. They are distinguished from each other, but are never distinguished from God. Never do you see anything approaching "God and the Spirit" or "God and the Father". They are distinguished from each other, but not from God. The Lamb is.<<<

He Who came as the Lamb, being the (eternal) Logos made flesh, necessarily took on the distinction (vis-a-vis God) that is native to creation. It is the very fact that in clothing Himself with that distinction (that marks created being as other than Uncreated Being) that we now have the ( most excellent) WAY to be what God always intended Man to be. Yes, it is His very immersion (baptism) in (with) the distinction of creation vis-a-vis God that was always to be His spiritual labor in bringing creation to fruition. Rather than being confounded that we find this distinction in His identity, we should rejoice that we recognize it because this means we have found that Precious Treasure that was buried in our (own) reality.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:06 pm

It has been said on this forum several times that many men of God did the same miracles that Jesus did, and in the same way, by the power of the Spirit of God. He raised the dead - so did they. He healed the lame - so did they. He healed the sick - so did they. He cast out demons - so did they.

Although it is true that men of God did perform miracles, the number of miracles that they performed is like a drop in the bucket, compared to the miracles of Jesus. The scripture tells us that, on more than one occasion, that ALL WHO CAME TO HIM (large crowds) WERE HEALED. Matthew 4:23-24

Not only that, but this same reference tells us that He healed EVERY KIND OF DISEASE AND EVERY KIND OF SICKNESS. Another reference is Matthew 8:16 No other man of God did that.

No apostle, no disciple, no prophet, no man of God has EVER performed the number of miracles that Jesus performed.

Also, Jesus performed many miracles that were totally different and unlike the miracles of other men of God. We have no record of anyone BUT JESUS performing the following: walking on water (Peter walked on water, ONLY at the command of Jesus, and only for a few seconds), turning water into wine, making it so that a fish had a coin in his mouth AND making it so that Peter would hook that specific fish, escaping a crowd that wanted to stone Him, feeding maybe 10 to 12 thousand people with just an armload of bread and fish, commanding the wind and the sea to be still, and THEY OBEYED, commanding the healing of someone who was many miles away. There must have been dozens, maybe hundreds of miracles that Jesus performed, that have NEVER been duplicated. (John 21:25)

Also, no apostle, no disciple, no prophet, no man of God, performed miracles IN THE SAME WAY THAT JESUS DID. They performed miracles BY FAITH IN GOD AND IN JESUS. JESUS PERFORMED MIRACLES BY THE VERY FACT THAT HE WAS GOD. I don't see anywhere in the New Testament that tells us that Jesus had faith. HE WAS THE OBJECT OF OTHER MEN'S FAITH. HE DIDN'T NEED FAITH, NOR DOES GOD. Who is God going to put His trust in?

So Jesus did more miracles than any other man of God. He performed unique miracles, that no other man of God has ever duplicated. Also, He commanded miracles, since He was God. He did not need to exercise faith to see them happen, as did other men of God.

Jesus said, "If I had not done among them THE WORKS WHICH NO ONE ELSE DID, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well." John 15:24

When we "see" Jesus' works, whether in person, or reading about them, we correctly come to the same conclusion that Thomas did, when he said, "My Lord and My God!"

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:32 pm

Darin,
Revelation 5: 12 - "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches ... " Jesus was not slain IN ORDER for Him to receive power, as you suggest. I think you are misinterpreting the verse. Jesus ALREADY HAD equal glory (and all the other things mentioned in verses 12 and 13) with the Father. Yes, those things were inherent in him. He tells us that in John 17:5 "Now Father, glorify Me together with Yourself (which is what the angels, the living creatures, the elders, every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, WERE DOING IN REVELATION 5:9-14), WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS."

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