Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:37 pm

Paidion wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:42 pm

Thomas Aquinas truly said that "God" cannot be defined. This is an absolute. Thus God cannot "define Himself" either!

So likewise, if God is truly undefinable as Thomas Aquinas correctly asserted, then even God cannot define Himself.

Paidion, please give us the Bible reference that shows that Thomas Aquinas knows what he is talking about. Because I don't think he does. To say that
God cannot define Himself is ludicrous to me.

Otherness
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Otherness » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:45 pm

Paidion>>>Otherness wrote :This Thomistic maxim needs to be qualified with the words “by man” because, of course, God can certainly define Himself.<<<
Paidion>>>Thomas Aquinas truly said that "God" cannot be defined. This is an absolute. Thus God cannot "define Himself" either! God cannot perform a contradiction in terms. ...if God is truly undefinable as Thomas Aquinas correctly asserted, then even God cannot define Himself. And this in no way implies that God is not omnipotent. He can do anything which is not inherently contradictory.<<<

Brother Paidion, this is pretty shaky ground here when you assert that God cannot define Himself because Aquinas says He can't. I do expect that Aquinas would say that we got him wrong if that is our takeaway from his statement. I added “by man” because I expect this is what he was getting at.

My “argument” is that God has defined Himself. Your “heavy stone” allegory about contradictions is a bit of a non sequitur because the question is : can God, or can't He, define Himself? There is nothing contradictory in the proposition, and I refuse to think that you object because God would be contradicting Aquinas if He claimed HE had (defined Himself).

Would you please clarify your thinking here, or let me know where I am misreading you.

To God be the glory.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:16 am

Otherness wrote:My “argument” is that God has defined Himself.


If that is the case, what is His definition?

Perhaps you mean that God has described Himself. With that I agree. That is an entirely different matter!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:06 pm

"define" in Websters: to determine or identify the essential qualities or meaning of; to fix or mark the limits of

Dwight - So Paidion, if your point is that God has no limits, then I would agree with you, but remember that the scripture teaches that He chose to limit Himself, to a certain degree, when He became a man. So He can choose to limit Himself. But of course, you do not believe that Jesus was God, so I would assume that you do not accept this idea either.

Dwight - Going with the first meaning, can God determine or identify His essential qualities or His meaning? Maybe He cannot determine His essential qualities, because they always were, but I don't see why He cannot identify His essential qualities and His meaning.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:45 pm

So what does "God" mean, according to God?
Paidion

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Otherness
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Otherness » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:04 pm

Paideion>>>Otherness wrote: My “argument” is that God has defined Himself.<<<

Paidion>>>If that is the case, what is His definition? Perhaps you mean that God has described Himself. With that I agree. That is an entirely different matter!<<<

To define something is to pin it down, to name it, in the most precise and concise language possible. To describe something is to broaden and enrich the language about it, to add “color” to it.

God defined Himself to Moses in Exodus 3 : God simply IS (a) PERSON(al) Being, an “I.” He named (defined / identified) Himself as the (Eternal) “I” -- YHWH – Who IS Being Himself. He is the only REALITY Who (That) IS – all else that is...is derivative, contingent, dependent. This “I” is (in His Own Self-Existence) Who and What He declares (describes?) Himself TO BE – only He cannot deny Himself, that is, He is (an) “I.”

I do not see defining and describing as, fundamentally, “different matters,” just a function of degree.

God defined Himself to Moses and elaborated on this as His revelation progressed, “describing” more and more the “kind of God” He is, ultimately completing the process in (as) Jesus.

Paidion>>>So what does "God" mean, according to God?<<<

Hmm...I would say, since God has no God, He knows Himself to be that One YHWH. All else that is, is other than Him, and is created. Yes, I would say that this is God's perspective about Himself. But then, of course, we have to deal with this from our perspective...so it gets messy.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:51 pm

Otherness wrote:Paidion>>>So what does "God" mean, according to God?<<<

Hmm...I would say, since God has no God, He knows Himself to be that One YHWH. All else that is, is other than Him, and is created. Yes, I would say that this is God's perspective about Himself. But then, of course, we have to deal with this from our perspective...so it gets messy.
God knowing all these things about Himself, is not God defining Himself. To define a word is to give the meaning of that word.
For example, the definition of the word "frigid" is "cold". So what would be the definition of "God"? Could it be "The creator of all things"?
God is certainly the creator of all things, but that does not define Him. For He is much more than that! Thus it is clear that Aquinas was right in saying that God cannot be defined! He can be described in part. But "describing" and "defining" are two different concepts.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:53 pm

Paidion,
I don't know why you come up with such meaningless topics. What is the purpose of such a discussion? To try to prove that Thomas Aquinas and you know something that the rest of us poor souls do not? I'm still not buying it. Even if what you're saying were true, how does that relate to this subject - Jesus is God? Where does the scripture tell us these things? You've quoted Thomas Aquinas. Now quote the scripture that tells us these things. If you can't do that, as they say in the court room, it's just heresay. Again, you love to quote the church fathers. I love to quote the scripture, the word of God, rather than the words of men, who can't confirm their words, by quoting from the Bible.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:03 am

"To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:45 am

Dwight wrote:Again, you love to quote the church fathers. I love to quote the scripture, the word of God, rather than the words of men, who can't confirm their words, by quoting from the Bible.
BALONEY! It is not at all that I "love to quote the church fathers". Nevertheless, the early Christian writers were better able to express spiritual truth than some modern commentators who live over 2000 years later.

"Scripture" is another word for "writing". But I suppose you are using the word to apply to any writing found in what today is called "the Bible".
What basis do you have for calling the writings of the Bible "the word of God"?

We've all heard it. The Bible is the inspired Word of God. It is inspired by God in its entirety and is without error.
1. The first question which those with that view must confront is "Which Bible?" The Catholic Bible, the Orthodox Bible, or the Protestant Bible. Although the contents of the New Testament are the same in all three, they all differ as to which writings belong in the Old Testament.
2. Secondly, how do we know which writings belong in the New Testament? Who chose them, and on what basis were they chosen?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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