Jesus is God
- dwight92070
- Posts: 1550
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: Jesus is God
Luke 13:34 - "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!"
Only God talks like this. Jesus implies that HE WAS NOT ONLY PRESENT throughout the history of Jerusalem BUT THAT IT WAS HE WHO wanted to bring the Jews UNDER HIS WINGS". He does NOT say under GOD'S WINGS - BECAUSE HE HIMSELF IS GOD. Once again, Jesus is IDENTIFYING HIMSELF AS YAHWEH.
All of the following verses refer to YAHWEH, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, the ONE Jesus is identifying Himself with:
Deuteronomy 32:11 - "Like an eagle ... He spread His wings and caught them, He carried them on His pinions."
Exodus 19:4 - "You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and BROUGHT YOU TO MYSELF."
Ruth 2:12 - "May the Lord reward your work, and your wages be full from the Lord, the GOD OF ISRAEL, UNDER WHOSE WINGS you have come to seek refuge.
Psalm 61:4 - " ... Let me take refuge IN THE SHELTER OF YOUR WINGS."
Psalm 63:7 - "For YOU have been my help, and in the shadow of YOUR WINGS I sing for joy."
Psalm 91:4 - "HE WILL COVER YOU WITH HIS PINIONS, AND UNDER HIS WINGS YOU MAY SEEK REFUGE;"
If Jesus wanted to make sure that no one ever confused Him with God, He certainly went about it the wrong way.
Only God talks like this. Jesus implies that HE WAS NOT ONLY PRESENT throughout the history of Jerusalem BUT THAT IT WAS HE WHO wanted to bring the Jews UNDER HIS WINGS". He does NOT say under GOD'S WINGS - BECAUSE HE HIMSELF IS GOD. Once again, Jesus is IDENTIFYING HIMSELF AS YAHWEH.
All of the following verses refer to YAHWEH, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, the ONE Jesus is identifying Himself with:
Deuteronomy 32:11 - "Like an eagle ... He spread His wings and caught them, He carried them on His pinions."
Exodus 19:4 - "You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and BROUGHT YOU TO MYSELF."
Ruth 2:12 - "May the Lord reward your work, and your wages be full from the Lord, the GOD OF ISRAEL, UNDER WHOSE WINGS you have come to seek refuge.
Psalm 61:4 - " ... Let me take refuge IN THE SHELTER OF YOUR WINGS."
Psalm 63:7 - "For YOU have been my help, and in the shadow of YOUR WINGS I sing for joy."
Psalm 91:4 - "HE WILL COVER YOU WITH HIS PINIONS, AND UNDER HIS WINGS YOU MAY SEEK REFUGE;"
If Jesus wanted to make sure that no one ever confused Him with God, He certainly went about it the wrong way.
- dwight92070
- Posts: 1550
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: Jesus is God
1 John 1:1-4
"What was from the beginning (In the beginning was the Word -John 1:1, Revelation 19:13), what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life - and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you THE ETERNAL LIFE, which was with the Father (and the Word was with God - John 1:1) and was manifested to us - what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. (and the Word was God - John 1:1) We cannot fellowship with the Father without also fellowshipping with His Son, because they are ONE.
Here Jesus is called "the Word of Life" and "the eternal life". There is only ONE who has eternal life - that is God. (And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7); "In Him (the Word - Jesus) was life, and the life was the light of men". John 1:4 He has always existed and always will exist.
1 Timothy 6:14-16 - " ...that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time - He who is the blessed and only Sovereign (Jesus), the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Jesus), who ALONE POSSESSES IMMORTALITY (Jesus) AND DWELLS IN UNAPPROACHABLE LIGHT (Jesus) which no man has seen or can see.To Him (Jesus) be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
1 John 5:11 - "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
ONCE AGAIN, Jesus is inseparable and indistinguishable from God.
"What was from the beginning (In the beginning was the Word -John 1:1, Revelation 19:13), what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life - and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you THE ETERNAL LIFE, which was with the Father (and the Word was with God - John 1:1) and was manifested to us - what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. (and the Word was God - John 1:1) We cannot fellowship with the Father without also fellowshipping with His Son, because they are ONE.
Here Jesus is called "the Word of Life" and "the eternal life". There is only ONE who has eternal life - that is God. (And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7); "In Him (the Word - Jesus) was life, and the life was the light of men". John 1:4 He has always existed and always will exist.
1 Timothy 6:14-16 - " ...that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time - He who is the blessed and only Sovereign (Jesus), the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Jesus), who ALONE POSSESSES IMMORTALITY (Jesus) AND DWELLS IN UNAPPROACHABLE LIGHT (Jesus) which no man has seen or can see.To Him (Jesus) be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
1 John 5:11 - "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
ONCE AGAIN, Jesus is inseparable and indistinguishable from God.
- dwight92070
- Posts: 1550
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: Jesus is God
No other person was begotten by the Holy Spirit coming upon them and the power of the Most High overshadowing them, without the "insertion" of the male sperm. His unique one-of-a-kind conception shows us clearly that He is God. John 1 says that the only begotten God is in the bosom (or chest) of the Father. It's like He is part of the Father.
Also, He said, "I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE". No one but God can say that. Even the early Jews believed that GOD was the ONLY ONE WHO COULD RESURRECT ANYONE, except for the Sadducees, who didn't believe in a resurrection, but Jesus corrected them.
Also, He said, "I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE". No one but God can say that. Even the early Jews believed that GOD was the ONLY ONE WHO COULD RESURRECT ANYONE, except for the Sadducees, who didn't believe in a resurrection, but Jesus corrected them.
- dwight92070
- Posts: 1550
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Re: Jesus is God
Obviously I meant to say that the Holy Spirit came upon HIS MOTHER, and the power of the Most High overshadowed her.
- dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God
Jesus Himself said that there is only One Who is good - that is God Himself. But we know that Jesus is good, in fact He is more than good - He is spotless, without blemish. John the Baptist called Him the LAMB OF GOD, which means He was without spot or wrinkle - perfectly sinless.
Had He sinned, then He could not have died for our sins or the sins of the whole world. Not only that, God would have rejected a sacrifice that was blemished with sin.
Now, either there are TWO "persons" WITHOUT SIN, God and Jesus, OR ELSE GOD AND JESUS ARE THE SAME "person", which is it?
Had He sinned, then He could not have died for our sins or the sins of the whole world. Not only that, God would have rejected a sacrifice that was blemished with sin.
Now, either there are TWO "persons" WITHOUT SIN, God and Jesus, OR ELSE GOD AND JESUS ARE THE SAME "person", which is it?
Re: Jesus is God
I have come across a Quote by the Greek philosopher Celsus (2nd century) who was engaged in debunking the Christian teachings of the time, particularly about God:
Celsus is said to have been knowledgeable about what the 2nd century teachings were about God. It appears they were equating Jesus with God.It is mere impiousness, therefore, to suggest that the things that were done to Jesus were done to God. Certain things are simply as a matter of logic impossible to God, namely those things which violate the consistency of his nature: God cannot do less than what it benefits God to do, what it is God's nature to do. Even if the prophets had foretold such things about the Son of God, it would have been necessary to say, according to the axiom I have cited, that the prophets were wrong, rather than to believe God has suffered and died.
- dwight92070
- Posts: 1550
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: Jesus is God
It is no wonder that they were equating Jesus with God, when we look at the scripture and see that that is exactly what the authors were doing:
1 John 1:3 - "... and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ."
Jesus and God go hand-in-hand. If we reject God, we reject Jesus. If we fellowship with the Father, we are also fellowshipping with Jesus. If we fellowship with Jesus, we are also fellowshipping with the Father.
Verse 7 - " ... but if we walk in the Light (God is light - vs 5) as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin." God provides the light, Jesus provides the blood. God reveals the sin with His light, Jesus cleanses us from all sin with His blood. The Father and the Son are One.
1 John 2:22 - "Who is the liar except the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. To deny that Jesus is the Christ, is to deny the Father?
Verse 24 - " ...If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father." The Father and the Son go together. Both are necessary for salvation. To remain in the Son is to remain in the Father and vice-versa.
1 John 3:24 - " ...We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." If He is remaining in us by the Holy Spirit, then He and the Holy Spirit are also One. So here we see the Trinity alluded to.
1 John 4:15 - "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God." Jesus and God are One and must be accepted.
1 John 5:1 - "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves the child born of Him."
1 John 5:20 - " ... and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE." The Father and the Son ARE THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.
1 John 5:21 - "Little children, guard yourselves from idols." To make a distinction between the Father and the Son - i.e. to say that the Father is God, but the Son is not God - is idolatry.
God made us in His image, but we cannot make Him in our image - i.e. we cannot alter the facts of scripture concerning the "person" of God, or His teaching. We cannot have God without Jesus, nor can we have Jesus without God
1 John 1:3 - "... and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ."
Jesus and God go hand-in-hand. If we reject God, we reject Jesus. If we fellowship with the Father, we are also fellowshipping with Jesus. If we fellowship with Jesus, we are also fellowshipping with the Father.
Verse 7 - " ... but if we walk in the Light (God is light - vs 5) as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin." God provides the light, Jesus provides the blood. God reveals the sin with His light, Jesus cleanses us from all sin with His blood. The Father and the Son are One.
1 John 2:22 - "Who is the liar except the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. To deny that Jesus is the Christ, is to deny the Father?
Verse 24 - " ...If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father." The Father and the Son go together. Both are necessary for salvation. To remain in the Son is to remain in the Father and vice-versa.
1 John 3:24 - " ...We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." If He is remaining in us by the Holy Spirit, then He and the Holy Spirit are also One. So here we see the Trinity alluded to.
1 John 4:15 - "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God." Jesus and God are One and must be accepted.
1 John 5:1 - "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves the child born of Him."
1 John 5:20 - " ... and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE." The Father and the Son ARE THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.
1 John 5:21 - "Little children, guard yourselves from idols." To make a distinction between the Father and the Son - i.e. to say that the Father is God, but the Son is not God - is idolatry.
God made us in His image, but we cannot make Him in our image - i.e. we cannot alter the facts of scripture concerning the "person" of God, or His teaching. We cannot have God without Jesus, nor can we have Jesus without God
- darinhouston
- Posts: 3114
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am
Re: Jesus is God
Where does this quote come from? Celsus was a pagan, of course. But I can't find the quote to get at the context of his statement.Homer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:43 pmI have come across a Quote by the Greek philosopher Celsus (2nd century) who was engaged in debunking the Christian teachings of the time, particularly about God:
Celsus is said to have been knowledgeable about what the 2nd century teachings were about God. It appears they were equating Jesus with God.It is mere impiousness, therefore, to suggest that the things that were done to Jesus were done to God. Certain things are simply as a matter of logic impossible to God, namely those things which violate the consistency of his nature: God cannot do less than what it benefits God to do, what it is God's nature to do. Even if the prophets had foretold such things about the Son of God, it would have been necessary to say, according to the axiom I have cited, that the prophets were wrong, rather than to believe God has suffered and died.
Re: Jesus is God
Hi Darin,
The quote is in a book I'm reading, "God of Sense and Traditions of Nonsense" by Sigve Tonstad, p.38. He took the quote from "Celsus on the True Doctrine" by Hoffmann, p.100. It must have come from Origen who quoted from Celsus' book which he (Origen) is rebutting. As you probably know only fragments of Celsus' book now exist; Origen quotes carefully from Celsus.
I will see if I can find it in Origen, I have the early church fathers including the index volume.
The quote is in a book I'm reading, "God of Sense and Traditions of Nonsense" by Sigve Tonstad, p.38. He took the quote from "Celsus on the True Doctrine" by Hoffmann, p.100. It must have come from Origen who quoted from Celsus' book which he (Origen) is rebutting. As you probably know only fragments of Celsus' book now exist; Origen quotes carefully from Celsus.
I will see if I can find it in Origen, I have the early church fathers including the index volume.
Re: Jesus is God
Darin,
I haven't yet located the exact quote but if you have the Ante-Nicene fathers you will find several evidences from Origen in "Origen Against Celsus" that Celsus understood the early Christians believed Jesus to be God in some sense. See the first 23 chapters of Book IV. Chapters are short, the 23 only take up about nine pages. Starts at page 497 in my set.
Reading Origen you can see the early Christians had trinitarian seeds in their thinking, if at least some were not outright trinitarian.
I haven't yet located the exact quote but if you have the Ante-Nicene fathers you will find several evidences from Origen in "Origen Against Celsus" that Celsus understood the early Christians believed Jesus to be God in some sense. See the first 23 chapters of Book IV. Chapters are short, the 23 only take up about nine pages. Starts at page 497 in my set.
Reading Origen you can see the early Christians had trinitarian seeds in their thinking, if at least some were not outright trinitarian.