Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by darinhouston » Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:58 am

Just a note that there is considerable textual-critical debate on John 1:18. I haven't looked at this in a while, but one stream has "only begotten God" and another reads "only begotten Son" -- ESV even reads "only God". Some textual-critics even render this as "only begotten of God" due to a perceived copyist error. There is also some debate whether begotten is even in question here vs. some aspect of uniqueness. Some critics believe the "begotten God" text is unlikely because it has a lot of logical problems with it, even for Trinitarians. The ESV is particularly troubling -- if Jesus is the only God that would preclude the Father from being God. Difficult passage and probably worthy of further review, but that's my recall.

I continue to find it interesting that so many of the textual variants and significant translation issues are in these trinitarian proof-texts.

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dwight92070
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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:25 pm

Darin,

You and Paidon are like tag-team wrestlers. Paidon and I had gone back and forth 4 times (during which you said nothing) and I was looking for his response, when suddenly your post shows up. Obviously you are free to contribute at any time, but often times your timing seems suspicious. Your post seems to serve as a distraction, so that my last post will be ignored, or the subject will be changed.

Hopefully, Paidon will respond to my last post and request.

Dwight

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darinhouston
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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by darinhouston » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:58 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:25 pm
Darin,

You and Paidon are like tag-team wrestlers. Paidon and I had gone back and forth 4 times (during which you said nothing) and I was looking for his response, when suddenly your post shows up. Obviously you are free to contribute at any time, but often times your timing seems suspicious. Your post seems to serve as a distraction, so that my last post will be ignored, or the subject will be changed.

Hopefully, Paidon will respond to my last post and request.

Dwight
Well, I certainly don't hope to distract anyone from seeing or responding to your posts. I look forward to Paidion's response. Sometimes I feel responding to some of your issues pointless, but they do sometimes remind me of something worth mentioning. Nothing more, nothing less, though sometimes I just don't have time to sit down and give a particular post justice and something quick comes to mind.

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Paidion
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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:46 am

I won't be responding.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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darinhouston
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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by darinhouston » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:37 am

Paidion wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:46 am
I won't be responding.
Hopefully not because I tagged in. ;) :lol:

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Paidion
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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:42 pm

Nope!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Paidion
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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by Paidion » Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:01 pm

I had decided not to respond to Dwight, as it seemed hopeless. "Convince a man against his will; he's of the same opinion still."
But now I have thought better of that decision.

Okay, I presume this is that to which I was expected to reply:

Dwight: Before I forget, please quote the "rule" you have been referring to and give your source for it.

All I said is that whenever you find "o θεος" (ho theos) in the New Testament, it always refers to the Father.
It is not a rule. It was an observation that I made from having read so many passages in which it clearly refers to the Father. And so I presumed that it was always the case.

Today, I decided to look up every instance of "o θεος" that could be found in the Greek New Testament.
I found 244 verses that contained the phrase, some containing it more than once.

I found only 3 verses that might be thought to be exceptions:

2Cor 4:3, 4 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe...(NKJV)

However, a possible translation is:
But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, of whom God has blinded the minds of those of this age who do not believe.

So it may not be an exception.

Heb 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. (NKJV)

I am really surprised that virtually all translations render it this way, as if the Father is addressing His Son as "God". But if this were the case, then "God" would be in the vocative case ("θεε") However "θεος" is in the nominative case. So the sentence should read "But to the Son He says: "God is your throne forever and ever." The New World Translation so renders it.

Then there is this one:
John 20:28 ESV And Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

It appears that Thomas addressed Jesus as "My Lord and my God!" If he did, this is a genuine exception. But did he?
In our day, many people exclaim, "My God!" Perhaps Thomas was exclaiming.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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