Theology "From the Top"!

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Paidion
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Re: Theology "From the Top"!

Post by Paidion » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:02 pm

Brother Alan, you wrote: However, if God is all-powerful, He is able to move a man’s free will to FREELY choose the good.
I will begin with this one. I think this sentence is an example of "squaring the circle" to which you referenced.
If God forces a man's will to do good, then the man then the man is NOT freely choosing the good.
This would be similar to a human father who forces his son to apologize to the boy he has harmed. When the boy makes such an "apology," clearly it is not done through his free will, but through force.

On the other hand, perhaps you mean something less than "force." You said "move." How do you "move" someone's will. Do you mean "influence"?
A human father might influence his son to apologize. How would he do this? Perhaps by offering him an increase in his allowance. Yet is still seems clear that the son would not be apologizing out of his own free will.
Paidion

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Re: Theology "From the Top"!

Post by BrotherAlan » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:52 pm

Thanks, Paidion and Homer for your good questions sparking some good considerations. Happy 4th, too.

So, Paidion, yes, you were ''on to something" by noticing that I used the word "move" not "force" with respect to God "moving" our free will. Note, too, that I asserted that God can move our free will so that we FREELY--that is the key word here!-- choose the good.

Before discussing how that can be possible, I think we do well to consider a more fundamental question, which is this: Does ALL good come, ULTIMATELY, from God? (Is God the ultimate source of ALL good?) Or, are there some goods which creatures can claim as SOLELY their own, without having God as being the ultimate source of that good?

These questions are very relevant and foundational to our discussion on the relationship between God and our free will (and our reason and Scriptures give us an insight into the answers to these questions).

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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Re: Theology "From the Top"!

Post by Paidion » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:40 pm

Before discussing how that can be possible, I think we do well to consider a more fundamental question, which is this: Does ALL good come, ULTIMATELY, from God? (Is God the ultimate source of ALL good?) Or, are there some goods which creatures can claim as SOLELY their own, without having God as being the ultimate source of that good?
Brother Alan, God created man in His image, the chief of which is free will—the ability to choose. Clearly man chooses his actions apart from any direct action on God's part. Atheists, Buddhists, God-haters, etc. have performed good acts, some of them risking or even GIVING their lives to save others.In my understanding every person with a normal brain chooses his own acts, and thus the source of these acts is in the person himself.

Of course, we could affirm that God is even the ultimate source of these peoples' good acts since He created man with the ability to perform those good acts. But that might be treading on dangerous territory. For on the same grounds, we could affirm that God is the ultimate source of evil as well. Some may object, saying that Satan is the ultimate source of evil. But did not God create Satan (even though he was not evil when created)?

So in conclusion, I think it is safe to say that the source of good as well as evil is in the free-will agent himself, for God created him as an independent free-will agent.
Paidion

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Re: Theology "From the Top"!

Post by BrotherAlan » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:44 am

Dear Paidion,
Thanks for another very thoughtful reply; I think we are covering some good, important principles here with respect to God’s power, human free will, etc.

Before addressing your points, I want to first give a reminder to all of us that the original question we started to investigate was the “Problem of Evil” (actually, the original question was, “Does God exist?”, to which I gave five traditional philosophical/theological arguments in support of His existence, and this “Problem of Evil” is simply one objection to His existence with which we are dealing). That is, we are dealing with the question: If God is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, how can evil exist? Shouldn’t an all-good God WANT to prevent all evil? And, if He is all-knowing, shouldn’t He KNOW how to prevent all evil? And, if He is all powerful, shouldn’t He be ABLE to prevent all evil? So, how can there be evil in the world?

Augustine’s proposed answer is that God has all these attributes, but allows/permits certain evils to exist to bring about a greater good.

Some feel that this explanation is not quite adequate, and some of the reasons for holding it as not adequate have led us to a discussion on human free will, and how human free will is related to God’s omnipotence, His power.

I have stated that God’s Power is such that He is able to move the human free will to choose good WHILE MAINTAINING the freedom of the individual; I have not (yet) tried to offer a direct explanation of how we can know that this is done (nor how this is done). However, I brought us to what I think is a more fundamental question: Is, or is not, God the source of all good?

So, that is where we were at as you responded to my question…in which you wrote:
Brother Alan, God created man in His image, the chief of which is free will—the ability to choose. Clearly man chooses his actions apart from any direct action on God's part. Atheists, Buddhists, God-haters, etc. have performed good acts, some of them risking or even GIVING their lives to save others. In my understanding every person with a normal brain chooses his own acts, and thus the source of these acts is in the person himself.

Of course, we could affirm that God is even the ultimate source of these peoples' good acts since He created man with the ability to perform those good acts. But that might be treading on dangerous territory. For on the same grounds, we could affirm that God is the ultimate source of evil as well. Some may object, saying that Satan is the ultimate source of evil. But did not God create Satan (even though he was not evil when created)?

So in conclusion, I think it is safe to say that the source of good as well as evil is in the free-will agent himself, for God created him as an independent free-will agent.
Okay, so, there is a lot of good stuff here. I’ll try to be concise in responding.

I don’t think there is any disagreement here (among us, anyway) in asserting that man has free-will (given to him by God). So, we’re in agreement on that.

And a free-will is that faculty which enables man to make choices between different goods (or between evil and good). Man has this; God gave it to him. We’re all in agreement on this. So, what Paidion said at the end of his last post, I heartily also assert: “I think it is safe to say that the source of good as well as evil is in the free-will agent himself, for God created him as an independent free-will agent.” (Though, I will just throw this out as a question to ponder in the back of our minds: Does the statement, “Even if the source of good is also in the free-will agent himself, God remains the ULTIMATE source of GOOD in the free-will agent,” contradict Paidion’s—and, now, MY—statement I just made here?)

Now, before going too deep into whether, and/or how, God and the free-will interact together (and whether this interaction can be done so that the human free-will maintains its freedom), I want to still get back to the question of whether or not the ULTIMATE source of ALL good is in GOD Himself? Why do I want to bring it back to this? Because, well, we are dealing with the GOOD of human acts/choices. If God is the ULTIMATE (and, I stress this word, “ultimate”) source of ALL good, then He is the source of the goodness, EVEN of the goodness which are in human acts (whether the human acting is a Christian, a Buddhist, and atheist, or something else). But, if God is not the source of goodness in human acts—if the goodness of human acts belongs, ultimately, to the man acting—then God is not the ultimate source of ALL goodness (for, we would have found some goodness—namely, the goodness in human acts, which would not belong to God). Of course, this presents a big problem: for, if God is truly God, then all goodness would have to come from Him, no? Even the goodness found in human acts? Something to really think about…

The Holy Scriptures DO shed some light on this issue. First, we have statements from Our Lord which, at least, touch on this issue. Our Lord will say things like, “I am the vine, you are the branches; without me, you can do nothing.” He said this, of course, with reference to the fruit that the vine and branches produce, and the spiritual fruit that Christ’s disciples produce. Is the branch responsible for the generation of its fruit? Yes. Is the vine responsible for the generation of the branch’s fruit? Yes. Both the vine, and the branch, are responsible for the fruit generated by the branch (but, the vine is primary to the branch, which is secondary in relation to the vine). In like manner, the good works of Christians ARE their good works: but, they are also—and even MORESO-- CHRIST’S good works, as He is acting through His followers, as a vine works through branches to generate fruit. (And similar things can be said about how God works through even non-Christians in the natural order, as opposed to the supernatural order, in how they produce naturally good choices).

Another Scripture verse: “What good have you that you have not received? If you have received it, then why do you boast?” Paul wrote this somewhere. The point is that if we have a good, we have RECEIVED it; from whom have we received it? Ultimately, from God (even if we have received it, as is usually the case, through secondary instruments, as God usually communicates His gifts to us through secondary instrumental causes, eg., our very lives were given to us by God but through our parents). Does this include the good of our good choices? Well, again, Paul says, “What good have you that you have not received?” He is saying that ALL good that we have—INCLUDING the good of our good choices—comes ULTIMATELY from, yes, God! Thus, we must not boast—even the good of our good choices comes, ULTIMATELY and PRIMARILY, from God (even if, yes, they truly are OUR *free* choices).

Well, does this mean our evil comes from God, too? Absolutely not! Why? Well, because evil is, if we think about it, nothing but a PRIVATION of a due good. The reason why the good of even our good choices MUST be, ultimately, from God (even it is, ALSO, from us, as we DO certainly have free-will), is because, again, ALL good comes from God. But, evil does not come from God. From where does the evil of our free choices come? From, yes, US. ONLY from us? YES, ONLY from us…not God. Because evil is a LACK, a PRIVATION of a due good; lack of good, privation of good does not come from the all-good God, as the good of our good choices comes, but from the evil use of our free-wills. So, once again, while the good of our good choices comes, yes, from us and the good use of our free wills—no doubt about that—the evil use of our free-wills to choose evil comes from, and only from, us. As that old saying goes, “The only things that we [human beings] own ALL by ourselves are our sins and our lies!” Sobering stuff; our evil choices belongs solely to us, but our good choices belong to both us and God, though more to God. Sobering and HUMBLING stuff (but, I think if one thinks long and hard about these things, one will see that these things are, in fact, true).

How does this all tie in to our question about the “Problem of Evil”? Well, again, the objection raised by the Problem of Evil recognizes all of these things that I have just stated, namely, that God COULD move the human free will to choose good ALWAYS (WHILE ALSO respecting the freedom of the free-will; though, I realize I have not, at least as of yet, delved much into exactly HOW that is possible, though I have laid out some general principles which, if carried to their logical conclusions, will lead one to see THAT it is possible, and, in fact, necessary); but, He doesn’t. Or, He could, in other ways, prevent evil things from happening (eg., He COULD, if He wanted to, physically prevent a person from carrying out evil in all sorts of ways, such as making the person, who is intent on doing evil, physically unable to do evil by, say, afflicting such a person with instant paralysis or death or something like that—God COULD do that, if He wanted to…and this is a point aside from the other assertion already made that He could also, if He wanted, move the person to freely CHOOSE to do good, He could, in the first place, if He wanted, move the free-will of the man to choose the good, while respecting the man's own freedom, for His Power enables Him to do that, and to say, "God moves my free-will," is not contradictory to, "I move my free-will"-- just as it is not contradictory to say, "The branch produces the fruit," and, "The vine produces the fruit."). Thus, if God doesn’t, in one way or another, prevent evil from happening, either by moving the free-will to freely choose good all the time, or, else, by simply physically preventing an evil choice from being carried out physically, then He is either not all-powerful, not all-good, or not all-knowing.

But, this brings us back to Augustine’s general solution (a solution that covers the Problem of Evil in general, even if it is not able to give a particular reason for why any particular given evil occurs, i.e., is allowed by God to occur), which is that the all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful God would not allow any evil to occur, unless if He was able, by His power, to bring about a greater good which otherwise would/could not be brought about if that evil was not permitted to occur.

So, I think what we need to see here is the real FORCE of the first objection, the force of the “Problem of Evil”: those who use this objection against God’s existence truly do realize that an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good God would want and be able to stop ALL evil; but, if there is evil, then there can’t be such a God. I think we need to realize the validity of the logic used in this objection (and, I think, if we do realize that, then, well, I really do not think there is any other answer we can give other than the one Augustine has given, although, certainly, I, for one, am open to hearing other responses to this real objection of the “Problem of Evil” which would improve upon Augustine’s answer).

Sorry, that was not so concise. Oh well…hope it still provided some helpful food for thought (and I look forward to hearing any responses in turn).

God bless you all.

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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Re: Theology "From the Top"!

Post by Paidion » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:21 pm

Brother Alan, you wrote:Well, because evil is, if we think about it, nothing but a PRIVATION of a due good.
I have heard this idea before. Just as "cold" is the absence of "heat", so is "evil" the absence of "good."
I think this idea is a grave mistake. I agree that "cold" is the absence of heat, but not that "evil" is the mere absence of "good"

For example, consider the "good" of Joe Bloe providing food for a hungry man who has no money and is jobless. Jim Schlim doesn't help the hungry man at all. That's an absence of good, but not an evil. Jack Brack sees the hungry man and kills him. THAT is an evil!
Paidion

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Re: Theology "From the Top"!

Post by BrotherAlan » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:48 pm

Thanks for the takes, Paidion.

In response, I make note of the word "due" in the definition of evil: "Evil is the privation of a DUE good.". (As is the case with mathematics, most, if not all, definitions in philosophy and theology do not have superfluous words; thus, EVERY word in formal definitions in philosophy and theology are potentially very important-- like the word "due" in this traditional definition of evil-- and so need to be careful to not overlook any single word in these sort of formal definitions from philosophy and theology). Since evil is the privation of a DUE good, in your example, the determination of whether or not Jim Schlim was guilty of doing evil (an evil act of OMISSION) would be determined by whether or not he deprived the hungry man of a *due* good (and determining that would need to take into consideration various things, such as the degree/seriousness of the hunger, and other things). So, at any rate, if it is determined that Schlim deprived the man of a good that was TRULY owed to the hungry man, then, indeed, he committed an evil (but, if he did not deprive the man of a good due to him, there's no evil).

However, I'm going to bring it back to the question at hand: is there a better, or even just ANOTHER, way to respond to the problem of evil than Augustine's? If so, I really want to hear proposed solutions. Again, the Problem of Evil is this:
1.) If there is a God who is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, there would be no evil in the world.
2.) But, there is evil in the world.
3.) So, there's no God who is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful.

The logic of this argument is valid. So, if it is an incorrect argument, then there has to be a problem with its premises. Premise 2 is clearly true, so we need to look at premise 1 and show it's false. Augustine says premise 1 is false because it is possible to have a God with the three attributes given (omniscience, omnipotence, omni-benevelonce) because such a God could, in His knowledge, goodness, and power ALLOW evils to bring about GREATER goods which OTHERWISE could not exist.

To me, Augustine's answer is solid; but, it seems there's some consternation with Augustine's proposed solution to the Problem of Evil, although, to be honest, I'm not sure EXACTLY what is the essence of the objections to Augustine's solution.

So, I'd like to hear:
1) What PRECISELY is wrong with Augustine's proposed solution?
2) If Augustine is wrong, then what OTHER solution can be proposed to refute premise 1 (above) of the argument in support of the Problem of Evil?

Thanks, and God bless.

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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Re: Theology "From the Top"!

Post by Paidion » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:41 pm

Greetings Brother Alan, you wrote:1) What PRECISELY is wrong with Augustine's proposed solution?
I think I already explained what's wrong with it. It's his solution that God does (or "allows") evil, in order to bring about a greater good.
I brought up the example of God "allowing" the rape and murder of little girls, and asked what greater good could He possibly bring about as the consequence of such a rape and murder? And if there was one, then could not He (who is omnipotent) have brought that greater good about without allowing such an atrocity?

The apostle Paul wrote in Romans 3:8"...why not do evil that good may come? —  as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just. Yes, if we do evil so that good may come, we deserve people's condemnation. So surely our totally righteous God does not do or allow evil in order that good may come.
You also wrote:2) If Augustine is wrong, then what OTHER solution can be proposed to refute premise 1 (above) of the argument in support of the Problem of Evil?
I also think I gave another solution, the one I believe to be correct. God created man with free will. God always allows man always to exercise his free will, for He wants all people to freely choose to have a relationship with Him and to obey Him. If God forcibly overrules some people's free will in order that they will do what He wants, then those people are not freely choosing to obey.
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Re: Theology "From the Top"!

Post by Homer » Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:43 pm

Hi Paidion,


You wrote:
I also think I gave another solution, the one I believe to be correct. God created man with free will. God always allows man always to exercise his free will, for He wants all people to freely choose to have a relationship with Him and to obey Him. If God forcibly overrules some people's free will in order that they will do what He wants, then those people are not freely choosing to obey.
While I agree with your position in general I do believe God sometimes (rarely) makes exceptions. In the story of Pharaoh I believe we find Pharaoh hardening his heart repeatedly, interspersed with God hardening Pharaoh's heart. Whether directly or indirectly, God intervened and brought about a result.

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Re: Theology "From the Top"!

Post by BrotherAlan » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:00 am

Thanks, Paidion and Homer. I am enjoying this dialogue which is bringing out a lot of good things to consider.

Getting to the key point we are considering right now—developing a proper response to the first objection to the claim that there exists a God who is all-good, all-knowing, and all-loving, which objection is often called the “Problem of Evil”—I’d like to respond to Paidion’s proposed solution to the Problem of Evil.

Paidion wrote:
I also think I gave another solution [to the Problem of Evil], the one I believe to be correct. God created man with free will. God always allows man always to exercise his free will, for He wants all people to freely choose to have a relationship with Him and to obey Him. If God forcibly overrules some people's free will in order that they will do what He wants, then those people are not freely choosing to obey.
Okay, so, let’s work with this proposed solution to the Problem of Evil. While I do not see any problems with the assertion that God created man with free will and, thus, God wants man to freely choose to obey His laws, etc., I do not think this answer is sufficient to properly respond to the Problem of Evil, and I think this for a number of reasons.

I think the first big short-coming with this solution is that it addresses only those evils that are caused by the choices of men, i.e., moral evils. But, the Problem of Evil deals with ALL evils, including those evils which are not caused by human beings. Thus, this proposed solution would not adequately respond to the evils which are caused by other things, eg., natural disasters, accidents in which no sin was involved, etc. Thus, for example, it does not appear that this proposed solution would give an adequate response as to why babies die at birth, or why thousands of people might die in an earthquake, or why a seemingly perfectly healthy and young father of one of my friends back in grade school tragically and suddenly died while playing basketball on a previously very joyful Thanksgiving Day, etc. The objection against the existence of an all-good, all-knowing, and all-loving God covers these sorts of evils, too, not just moral evils, for life is full of these sorts of evils. In fact, I would say that it is these sorts of evils—the NON-moral evils—which pose the biggest difficulty to holding to belief in a God who is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful (for, it would seem that if such a God exists, He would surely want to and be able to stop such evils from occurring). So, it appears that this proposed solution, since it does not seem to give any sort of response to these non-moral evils, has a rather large lacuna in it.

Further, I think there is a second short-coming with this solution even when looking at moral evils. For, suppose, for the time-being and for the sake of argument, that it is a metaphysical and logical impossibility for God to be able to move a man’s free will while at the same time maintaining the freedom of the will (I think it can be shown that this, in fact, is NOT a logical/metaphysical impossibility, and perhaps I will argue this more thoroughly later, but, for now, let’s just assume that for the sake of the argument here), it still remains the fact that God, if He were all-powerful, could PHYSICALLY stop a man who has chosen to do evil. Thus, for example, suppose there is a man who, in his heart, decides to commit murder. Again, leaving aside the question as to whether God could have prevented this man from making such an evil decision in the first place (while also maintaining this man’s freedom), still, if God were all-powerful, He COULD stop the man from ACTUALLY carrying out the murder (for, if, say, an armed policeman could stop such a man from carrying out this crime, then how much more so could an all-powerful God stop such a man from carrying out this crime). Thus, to go to the horrible example of the rape and murder of the poor girl: just granting that the man decided to carry out that awful crime, an all-powerful God would be able to stop the man from actually carrying out, even moreso than an armed policeman could have, but God did not stop the man from carrying it out. This, of course, begs the huge question of, "Why?" So, regardless of the question of the interaction between God and human free-will, the fact remains that human beings carry out physical crimes, crimes with their bodies, even though an all-powerful God COULD stop such things from occurring. Again, why is this, how could this be, if God is all-powerful, all-good, and all-knowing? It does not seem to me that Paidion’s proposed solution, as well-meaning as it is, adequately responds to this dilemma.

So, while I respect Paidion’s efforts to respond to this difficult Problem of Evil, I think those are two major lacunae that are present in that proposed solution.

Thoughts?

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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Re: Theology "From the Top"!

Post by Otherness » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:15 pm

Brother Alan>>>However, I'm going to bring it back to the question at hand: is there a better, or even just ANOTHER, way to respond to the problem of evil than Augustine's? If so, I really want to hear proposed solutions. Again, the Problem of Evil is this:
1.) If there is a God who is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, there would be no evil in the world.
2.) But, there is evil in the world.
3.) So, there's no God who is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful.<<<

Hello Brother Alan,

I address this “problem” in the thread “The Divine Genius of the Trinity,” and identify AN OTHER “simpler” way of looking at it that presents evil as an inevitable risk that attends what it is that God is “looking for” in His creative labor.

As I said there I recognize the Trinity as the Creative State of the Being of I AM. That is, that LIFE -- that is WHO and WHAT He SAYS He IS – Self-Exists in His Trinitarian State because this is Who He IS (in His role) as Creator. In existing in His triune state He is generating (actually making real, as He –ALONE –is real) THAT which OTHERNESS is.

“Now” that “otherness” is real He can now make others (to become the Body of Christ) that are truly real – truly other beings. Being truly other beings they are by their very nature able to be other than what He designs them to be, that is, they can make themselves other than the GOOD He is – they can make themselves evil.

The only WAY to get what it is that He desires in His creative labor to bring forth truly (ontologically) other beings who can reciprocate the LOVE that desires their existence is…well, the WAY He is doing it.

So…rather than (1) “If there is a God who is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, there would be no evil in the world,” it is :
If there is a God who is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, AND He wants the existence of truly other beings who (can come to) love Him as He loves them, then He will have to risk their being and doing other than He wills : for they are truly other beings.

The Body of Christ is His First Love in creation, and all else is designed around us. We “understand” that (our doing and being) evil was never necessary for God to achieve His purpose in creation, that is, it was ever only a (covered) risk in creating the “quality” of beings that we are (finally becoming in the Grace and Truth of Christ).

In His Love
Last edited by Otherness on Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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