Understanding Lordship Salvation

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
dwilkins
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by dwilkins » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:35 pm

john6809 wrote:I agree with backwoodsman's analysis. But I'm with rusty in regards to the question. I had a much easier time with the question when I was single. In the context of marriage and children, with all of the varied personalities and likes, trying to follow the primary command of Christ to love others and lay down my life, is much more difficult to decipher. IMHO.


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This is part of my point. If you become a believer at age 20 you can't stipulate to what you're willing to make Jesus Lord of at age 40. All you can do is generically submit to God and begin the journey. But, a lot of the second guessing that I've seen on the matter comes from an analysis of what you aren't willing to give up at 40. It then turns into questioning whether you really, truly made the decision at age 20. That ex post facto analysis is not fair. The Lordship someone stipulates to early in life is by nature going to be incomplete and vague, so what do we make of a refusal to submit 20 years later when things get complicated?

Doug

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john6809
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by john6809 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:01 pm

Doug, there's nothing that I am aware of that I haven't been willing to submit to His lordship. That doesn't mean it's always clear whether I have submitted to His lordship or if I have said, "Lord, let me first..." at the preference of my family.

Maybe it's never been unclear to you. Praise God if that's so! For me, it's not always obvious.




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dwilkins
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by dwilkins » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:07 pm

I think you misunderstood me. I don't think everything that you will have to give up is clear to anyone at the moment they believe. I think at that moment you are supposed to be submitted to God, but you can't possibly know everything that entails. Therefore, push back some years down the road is not necessarily an indication that you didn't really mean it in the nanosecond of belief at the beginning. A great deal of the argument of Lordship Salvation, or at least the criticism made by followers of it, is based on the assumption that if you aren't submitting now you didn't make a bona fide decision years ago. I think this is a big mistake. I don't think they are all saying this. But, I see it is often enough that I think it's a major flaw in that approach.

Doug

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john6809
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by john6809 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:50 pm

I understand Doug. Thanks.


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Singalphile
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by Singalphile » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:58 pm

Rusty wrote:But the thing with this is, unlike the military, I'm not exactly sure what I am supposed to be doing.
Good post!

There's a lot that isn't as clear as I'd like. The wealth, ease of travel, medical advancements, etc. What to do with it all?

Of course we ought to be generous, kind, peaceful, and so on. Otherwise, as Paul says, do we just find some honest work, take care of the family, and live a quiet life? Apparently, that is acceptable and can be as God-honoring and fruitful as anything. But sometimes it doesn't seem like it. It seems like the Church could be a little more organized and united in terms of getting all us pew-sitters to work, but I suppose that anyone can get himself or herself plugged in, as they say, with a little effort.

I always thought it would be easier as a married person, by the way.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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john6809
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by john6809 » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:56 am

[/quote]

I always thought it would be easier as a married person, by the way.[/quote]

1 Corinthians 7:33-34 tells us that we will be more concerned with the things of the world if we are married and less able to care about the things of The Lord. I can vouch for this.







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Rusty
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by Rusty » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:25 am

Paidion wrote: God loves people completely, and knows that they will live life to the full in this world, when they are delivered from those self-seeking attitudes, and submit to the way of love that Christ offers, and to live in accordance with the law of Christ, and that this will equip them for eternity in His presence.
Does that equate with being a law abiding citizen? Such as for the most part you strive to obey the laws of the legal system?

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Paidion
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by Paidion » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:41 am

Does that equate with being a law abiding citizen? Such as for the most part you strive to obey the laws of the legal system?
I suppose one could think of it in that way—with this difference:

In obeying the law of Christ we are not left with only our striving. Through Christ's death we obtain God's enabling grace (Titus 2) that "trains us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age."
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by Singalphile » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:13 pm

john6809 wrote: 1 Corinthians 7:33-34 tells us that we will be more concerned with the things of the world if we are married and less able to care about the things of The Lord. I can vouch for this.
Good reminder. I forgot about that but I remember it. My point is that it seems easier to know what to do as a married person: Care and provide for your family.
But for a single person, the options are nearly endless. I could pick up and move anywhere and do anything at just about any time.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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steve
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by steve » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:31 pm

This is part of my point. If you become a believer at age 20 you can't stipulate to what you're willing to make Jesus Lord of at age 40. All you can do is generically submit to God and begin the journey. But, a lot of the second guessing that I've seen on the matter comes from an analysis of what you aren't willing to give up at 40. It then turns into questioning whether you really, truly made the decision at age 20. That ex post facto analysis is not fair. The Lordship someone stipulates to early in life is by nature going to be incomplete and vague, so what do we make of a refusal to submit 20 years later when things get complicated?
Doug,

You wrote this further back in the thread. I had some thoughts about it at the time, but have not had time to respond to it until now.

A person is not committed to Christ because he feels that he is committed, or is submitting completely at the present moment. Whatever touches the altar is holy. When we genuinely recognize and confess Jesus as our Lord for life, we have been consecrated to a lifetime of service to Him. This is little different from the commitment we make to our wives at our weddings. When we have made such vows, our remaining married does not depend on whether we feel that we are married or not. Our marital status does not depend upon whether we are perfectly fulfilling all of our marital obligations.

If we subsequently should ever wonder whether we really made the marriage commitment, we can always check our ring finger for the proof (or even watch the videos of the ceremony!). Likewise, if someone begins to wonder whether he/she ever really made the commitment to be a disciple of Jesus, it should not be difficult to remember getting baptized (which should only have taken place after such a commitment was made).

If we marry at age 20, it doesn't matter that we are ignorant of what sacrifices and challenges may be presented to us at age 40. We have already made the unconditional commitment that, regardless what the challenges may turn out to be, we are going to stay the course and remain faithful to our vows. My wife is in good health, but we are both getting old. I married a healthy woman not knowing whether she will someday have Alzheimer's, cancer, cerebral palsy or full-body paralysis. I could not know such things, but it doesn't matter. I don't know what circumstances may change, but I am well aware of my commitment and my duty.

If such circumstantial changes would induce me to abandon my wife, then I either never made the proper marriage commitment that I said I was making at the altar, or else I have subsequently defaulted on the commitment I have made. In either case, my vows bind me, and my duty is clear. If I did not mean them at the time, I still made them and must keep them. If I am currently defaulting on them, then I must repent and return to my commitment.

Likewise, when a person is told that Jesus is the Lord, and that we must repent of our rebellion and enter into a faithful relationship with Him, our baptism is our vow, and we are under obligation to keep it, whether we later feel like doing so or not. The backslider may have never been truly surrendered, but by having previously confessed Christ and been baptized, he/she has made the lifetime commitment. Having walked away from it does not free him/her from that commitment. It only means that that person is being false to his/her vows, and must return to obedience.

This assumes, of course, that the person was originally mature enough to understand the commitment that was being made. If the gospel was preached to that person without reference to the lordship claims of Christ, then that person may never have knowingly entered into the covenant, nor agreed to its terms. In that case, the fault really falls upon the evangelist who misrepresented the gospel.

A true presentation of the biblical gospel requires that the unbeliever's conscience be confronted by the crown rights of the Messiah, and His call for repentance. The evangelist had best make sure the respondent understands what these things mean, before bringing him/her to baptism—just as the pastor will usually make sure a young couple understands the commitment that marriage involves prior to hearing their vows. That's why Jesus required people to count the cost before becoming His followers.

Counting the cost does not mean getting a full list of trials and sacrifices one will experience in their lifetime of discipleship. It means coming to Christ by a denial of oneself completely (Matt.16:24), acknowledging Him as the Lord (Rom.10:9). As in deciding to marry, nobody knows, when signing-up, what trials and self-denials may come down the pike in the lifetime that lies ahead. However, whatever the cost, none can rightfully say, "I never signed up for this!" In fact, we did sign up for "this" when we confessed Christ and made the pledge of baptism. What is called for, from the point of conversion onward, is the basic integrity of keeping one's promises.

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