The Trinity and Light

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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jriccitelli
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by jriccitelli » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:05 am

But if we are made in the image of God, how does the trinity fit in regard to separate persons?
'There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all... until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ...from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love' (Eph 4)
'For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another' (Romans 12:5)
'Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread. (1Cor 10:17)
'But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. 12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. (1Cor 12)
I did not plan that our bible discussions group topic last night on Genesis would open with a study of the Shemas foundational importance to Judaism and Christianity ( https://www.facebook.com/pages/THINK-Ab ... 9613374329 ), and continue with the question, what is the second most important revelation to our understanding of God, everyone agreed it is Jesus. The question that followed was simular to yours (cant remem exactly), but it resulted in our agreeing that the highest form of the self is not the self, but the the unity or oneness we become in Christ. The new man is the many, or all of humanity in Christ, made in the image of God, not what man is but what we will be: '... that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one (John 17:21-22)
We are greatest when we are all one together, not individuals, but one, knit together in love. We die to 'self' and become One with God and the Body, just as Christ died and went back to be One with the Father.

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jriccitelli
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by jriccitelli » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:27 am

Jose, attacking the trinity does not justify your own belief about Jesus:
It is one thing to have discussions about God within the context of monotheism, but outside of monotheism you may as well be discussing polytheism or atheism, scripture does not allow for more than one God. You need to first decide if you believe there is one God, or two, or none. (me june 16)
Who and what is Jesus then to you Jose, if he is not God?

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:11 pm

Hey Homer.

My thoughts are that that books is lying and ridiculous in its logic. Of course God has always been referred to as a person, throughtout all of history including the Middle ages. He has not justification to make such an outlandish claim that all men of God only used "persona" in the Middle ages (nor would that even prove his point either). I'm positive I could produce countless examples of people treating God as a person from the Middle ages.

"Thus, we can say that it was the nineteenth century which made God into a person"

This is mind-bogglingly preposterous. Where is his evidence that no one in the Middle ages considered God a person? Doesn't common sense tell us, not only that it would be hard to prove, but that it most likely is completely false?

"three expressions of his being"

It seems his whole argument is just to try to lend credence to modalism somehow. Not an honest way to argue.
It seems we assume we can have a complete understanding of the nature of the unsearchable God through human analogy, but is this valid?
But this has nothing at all to do with whether we can view God as a person or not. You can't use the argument that only if you have "complete understanding" can you understand anything at all. If there is nothing understandable about God, we may as well throw the word out, it's become meaningless.
But if we are made in the image of God, how does the trinity fit in regard to separate persons?
"In the image of God made he them." Male and female are said to be a singular image of God, an example of a plural unity.
In our striving for answers it seems we give new ideas, unthought of by the inspired writers of the scriptures, to biblical words.
This is just an assertion. You need to show how and why I'm using words in a way "unthought" of by biblical writers. Anyone can make any assertion without evidence.

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Paidion
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Paidion » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:22 pm

Jose, why don't you tell JR that you are not attacking the Trinity, for there is no Trinity to attack.
Paidion

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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Paidion » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:27 pm

Dizerner wrote:Of course God has always been referred to as a person.
Dizerner, if God is "a person", then how can God be three persons? Or do you dismiss this question on the grounds of "the mystery of the Trinity"? Also if God is three persons, why do Trinitarians refer to God as "He"? Wouldn't it make sense to refer to God as "They"?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by jriccitelli » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:33 pm

Paidion you are trying to explain your ideas by restricting yourself, and God, to human attributes and definitions. Or confining yourself only to what you know about what persons are composed of. God is not a man, thus what God is as a person, does not have to be what we think a person must be. And none of us really know what a person is, where one starts and where one ends anymore than we can discern where or what spirit is, which is what a person really is.

You know we have already discussed that a person is undefined and as abstract an idea in scripture, as is spirit. What scripture does insist is that 'there is spirit', that 'God is a Spirit', and that 'we possess a spirit' (although you think body and spirit are one).

We have already said there is no problem calling God them, or God saying we, as in let us make man in our image. When I pray I am praying to God, I do not need to make any distinction between Jesus and the Father. I don't 'have' to say them (they) because Jesus said they are One, and I 'know' they are One.

If God, or I, could blend me and my wife's spirit together as one, and maybe God can, then I would not have a problem calling me and my wife us. And no problem being referred to as one. And no problem being referred to as they, even though we are in fact one.

Paidion you continue and continue to attack and criticize the doctrine and monotheism of the Trinity, but you have two gods.

Remember you keep using the term trinity, I have been defending the doctrine of Jesus Deity in the context of monotheism. I have said I do not need to call this the trinity, or need to, there is just no other way around what God Jesus and the Holy Spirit have declared.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:18 pm

Paidion wrote:
Dizerner wrote:Of course God has always been referred to as a person.
Dizerner, if God is "a person", then how can God be three persons? Or do you dismiss this question on the grounds of "the mystery of the Trinity"? Also if God is three persons, why do Trinitarians refer to God as "He"? Wouldn't it make sense to refer to God as "They"?
Good point, Paidion, I do think if we use the singular person we have to refer to just one of the Trinity in general. Remember when we say "God" we don't always mean the Trinity. It would make sense to refer to God as They, in my opinion. I think we often use the singular for simplicity to refer to the Trinity, but calling God one singular person in the context was not correct of me. I mean obviously that would only apply to Trinitarians... but we don't see the three persons as "one" person, ever. We might refer to God in the singular just for grammatical economy, or as a concept of a Supreme Being, or not to confuse those outside the faith. But when we say in the "name" of the Father, Son and Spirit, only persons have a name. Whenever we use a singular it would be as a Godhead or an individual within it, but not removing the personal distinctions.

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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by TheEditor » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:29 pm

What I find most vexing about these discussion, and at times humorous or entertaining, is the utter lack of consistency demonstrated. For instance, I could easily accept a trinitarian understanding of God, if the basis for so doing was the professor saying "Look, I realize this doesn't make sense in human terms to our finite minds, but I believe I am bound to this teaching by what I believe different Scriptures are saying at the same time, disparate though they may be." Instead, I find an insistence on pretending to this making sense in the rational, logical construct, and a claim that various analogies can somehow make this comprehensible, and that it really does in fact make sense. However, when troubling conundrums are brought to bear, the fallback argument is "It's the mystery of trinity." Well, fine. But don't expect or assume that everyone is comfortable leaving it at that.

Frankly, I think human ego has alot to do with this. If you tell someone that what they believe makes no comprehensible sense, and they are not of the snake-handling variety of Evangelical, then they are going to take umbrage to it and try to make you see how it does. It's called "dissonance." So it seems to me we are left with only a handful of possibilities, either:

a) God "reveals" this teaching to our minds supernaturally, and no amount of logical analysis is going to convince one of it's truth

b) It can be logically understood and makes complete sense, but some just don't want to see that it is true

c) It doesn't make sense, and it isn't true and it''s lack of sense is one proof that it's not true

d) No understanding of God is truly possible, and so there is bound to be difficulties in any discussion of Him/Her/It.

I tend to think the last option is correct, and so I have great reservations telling anyone that their mental apprehensions about God's nature is the basis for judgment.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:35 pm

You're absolutely right, we should not ever imply the Trinity is any more rational or logical than Christ becoming a man and dying for human sins. That also distresses me when the Bible specifically calls the wisdom of God foolishness to the natural mind.

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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:22 am

Hi Dizerner,

I am sure you are being a bit glib with your comments so as to underscore a point. I do not want to put forth the notion that the apparent foolishness or incomprehensibility of something is what determines it's truthfulness. I know you are vehemently non-Calvinist. I believe you yourself have used expressions implying cruelty or schizophrenia towards a Calvinist God. So there is a place for reasonableness and rationality. I don't think when Paul talked about the foolishness of the cross he meant to imply, "If it's idiotic it must be divine." The foolishness of the good news was also the same good news that stumbled the Jews. It was foolishness to the Greeks because they believed the body was something to escape from and be pure spirit. The resurrection seemed to them foolishness.

My point was, I can accept a person saying that they accept by faith that which they cannot rationally explain. But to say that something can be rationally explained, and then when button-holed by an opposing viewpoint, to then use a cop-out like "it's a mystery", is the "foolishness" that does not betoken truth.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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