The Trinity and Light

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Homer
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Homer » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:41 am

Homer wants to make the Word above "impersonal" but that Word is given personal attributes even in preexistence. Jesus wasn't some floaty thought or abstract principle in his preexistence. He was sharing glory.
I never meant to say or even imply that. There are personal pronouns aplenty regarding The Word prior to His incarnation.

John 1:3 (KJV)
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:10 (KJV)
10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV)
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Colossians 1:16-17 (KJV)
16. by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV)
9. And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Jose
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Jose » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:59 am

dizerner wrote:
Jose wrote: The verses at the end of your post have nothing to do with Jesus being God.
They are why Israel didn't know Jesus was God.
Israel rejected Jesus as the long awaited Messiah. They would never have thought that he was God. The big question at his trial was "are you the Christ?"

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jriccitelli
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by jriccitelli » Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:01 pm

You have a remarkable ability to always sidestep the questions being asked of you. (Jose)
You asked one question I addressed it. You pop in here with one odd question and you are going to criticize me? That is baloney, and your inability to see the answer is not my fault.
Jesus, like all Jewish boys, was taught the Shema. The question, in essence was- Do you (or any one else) think he, or any of those other thousands of children, (and the rabbis teaching them) throughout all those many hundreds of centuries, believed that Deut 6:4 is talking about a multi-personal godhead? I don't believe the thought ever entered theirs minds. (Jose)
Never mind Jesus' mom, what if Jesus walked up to Moses and said "I and the Father are one" or "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" or "I am the light of the world" or “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth" or "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, the Son of Man" What thought do you suppose would enter the mind of Moses and those standing there? What do you think Moses would say to that? Jesus had better back up what he said because he is saying he and the Father are equal, one, and the same.

My question back to you then: there is Only One true God, how can God have an equal such as Jesus, after saying Himself He has no equal?

You seem to miss that Jesus often speaks in the third person about Himself, and as God Himself, and as Yahweh Himself. Take what you want from the verse below, but note what seems like Jesus speaking in the third person, His relating that He withholds from explaining everything about Himself to everyone, but explains these things to His disciples:

'Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 “If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3) Decide for yourself if this is John narrating verbatim, or Christ. but this is only some of many examples.
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17)
Again Jose, Jesus isn't wrong or deceiving when He says to worship God alone, He can say this 'as' God. Just the same He is not denying He is good in the following verse either, right? Although He is saying there is 'none' good but God alone:
'And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone' (mark 10:18)

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Paidion
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Paidion » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:34 pm

Thank you, Homer, for expressing your beliefs about God. You were very adept at doing that.

Also, I empathize with you with regards to your health concerns. I have been praying for you. May God be with you in every way!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by darinhouston » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:25 pm

Ditto what Paidion said -- praying for your healing and recovery.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:49 pm

Homer wrote:
Homer wants to make the Word above "impersonal" but that Word is given personal attributes even in preexistence. Jesus wasn't some floaty thought or abstract principle in his preexistence. He was sharing glory.
I never meant to say or even imply that. There are personal pronouns aplenty regarding The Word prior to His incarnation.
Many apologies for misrepresenting you! I found your list somewhat confusing. Can you help me clarify:

Do you think Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit are all one person?

Do you think Jesus has all the attributes of God?

Jose
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Jose » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:05 pm

Hi JR,

If I offended you, I apologize, I meant no offense. It was a lighthearted observation that oftentimes you go into a lengthy dialogue without really addressing the issue. Dizerner answered it directly, but you instead talked about how Jesus knew he was God, and that he is one with God, and how I'm putting my trust in a creature, and then condescendingly tried to tell me that monotheism is theology 101. After that you talked about how many bible studies you are involved in, and asked me what kind of bible studies I am doing, and if there are others in my group. In all of that you did not address the question at all. In your post to Brenden you said that basic theology (God 101) is that God is one. That is what I believe Deut 6:4 teaches, hence my question. I'll rephrase it; basically, it was this: Since Deut 6:4 (God is one) is such an important and basic truth to the Jews (Theology 101), that was taught to Jewish children from a very young age, do you think that they could've possibly come away thinking that God is a trinity, an essence with multiple personalities? Dizerner answered no, Torah following Jews would not have conceived a trinity from Deut 6:4.

My inability to see your answer is indeed your fault because you didn't give one.
Last edited by Jose on Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:18 pm

No, with a couple of caveats, firstly Deut. 6:4 in no way contradicts Trinitarian theology, second that if the OT prophets walked closely with God they did often get a glimpse into these things. Do I think the Trinity would have been rejected by Moses, for example? No, I don't, nor really any other OT saint walking closely with God. They would accept new revelation from God. The NT simply brings in more revelation at an appointed time and a "new and living way." I think salvation was found under Judaism until Christ cursed the fig tree and said "May you never bear fruit again."

Just to clarify OT/NT distinctives.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:23 pm

Jose wrote:Israel rejected Jesus as the long awaited Messiah. They would never have thought that he was God. The big question at his trial was "are you the Christ?"
I agree to an extent but the Jew's idea of who the Messiah was and what he would accomplish was wrong. Also why was it blasphemy to merely claim to be the Messiah? There's no writings in all of Judaism that I know that say it's blasphemy merely to claim to be the Messiah.
Last edited by dizerner on Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:35 pm

Jose wrote:dizerner,

The scribe's spiritual status is unrelated to the topic at hand. I said that they both shared the same understanding OF WHO GOD IS, as articulated in the Shema. Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love YHWH, and the scribe agreed. The thing to notice, though, is that they both spoke of YHWH as someone other than themselves. The scribe used singular personal pronouns when speaking about YHWH, and then Jesus patted him on the back and told him that he spoke wisely. If language means anything, singular personal pronouns indicate single personal beings. If YHWH is not a HE but is actually a plurality of beings, then Jesus failed to enlighten the man with this all important truth.
The common understanding that they shared is that YHWH is single being.
I disagree with your assessment. Jesus did not "pat him on the back" he said "you are not far." That's not a pat on the back, or him saying everything's okay with his interpretation. And then it says "no one dared asked him more questions." It's far too big of an assumption by you that Jesus had nothing left to say—no one asked him anything more. I do agree with you that Jesus spoke of YHWH as a singular entity. That's because he was referring to the Father specifically. The Father is a singular entity. Jesus is submitted to the Father just like the Spirit is. So if Jesus talks about the Father it will always be singular. Would Jesus include himself in the Shema, if we asked him? I'd say he would in essence but not in office, because I see that Godhead as having roles in salvation. I'll admit the more I study Scripture the more I seem to lean towards what is called "Eutychianism" (http://4.1m.yt/uPO4Ezol.png), that Christ's nature did fundamentally change in some way upon the incarnation. I don't feel entirely confident I have all that sorted out, and some might see it as error. However I'd firmly say he's 100% divine or God.

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