The Trinity and Light

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:21 pm

How can you possibly substantiate the claim "NONE of them refer to a Trinity." You'd have to disprove every single use of the NT word God as in any way applying to the Holy Spirit or Christ.
No, I don't need to prove that to substantiate my claim that "NONE of them refer to a Trinity." In fact, I have stated from the beginning of these discussions of God, that the word "God" sometimes is applied to the Son. Two examples occur in John 1:

In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with (or "toward") the theos (the Father) and the logos was theos (deity of "God-stuff)." (John 1:1)

I think "the logos" clearly refers to the Son, and that He is also "theos" or deity.

No one has ever seen God; the only begotten God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known. (John 1:18)


In John 1:18 the second occurrence of the word "God" refers to the Son. That doesn't mean it refers to the Trinity. The Son is not the Trinity.

I still aver that no occurence of the word "theos" (God) in the New Testament refers to the Trinity. If you think you know a verse in which it does, please quote it. But first try substituting "The Trinity" for the word "God" in the verse and see if it makes any sense.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:36 pm

Excuse me. What I originally posted here, I meant to post to "Musings on Animal Sacrifices." I have done so now.
Last edited by Paidion on Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by TheEditor » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:15 pm

JR,

If the most popular thread on this Board were "The 10 Commandments" or "Calvinism" or any other matter that I had a different opinion on than yours, I am most certain that that particular subject would be the one I posted on most, for the sheer fact that this is a conversation, a back and forth. Added to that, your apparent need to re-stir the pot every now and again indicates to me that you like to bait people. Fair enough. I can relate. However, to then turn around and imply I am somehow the one with the trinity fixation for so engaging strikes me as disingenuous to say the least. I would probably be a little less flattering than "bees to honey" in my "insect/attractant" analogy. :lol: If you feel the need to continue in the spreading of the Good News of the trinity, be my guest. I have said all I can say on the subject and have read and reread the trinity thread for fear I missed answers to my oft-posed questions, but alas, hoped for answers are nowhere to be found, merely an incessant drumbeat of "one God" which invokes in my mind a certain artistic portrayal of three monkeys. ;)

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:43 pm

But first try substituting "The Trinity" for the word "God" in the verse and see if it makes any sense.
Hear O Israel: Yahweh, our Trinity, Yahweh is One. Thou shalt love Yahweh your Trinity with all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength.

Any objections to loving Jesus and the Holy Spirit out there?

Jose
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:42 pm

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Jose » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:15 am

Oh, now I get it! :-)

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:19 am

Brenden I fear God, don't you? I do not know how a believer of any denomination or such, could take a cavalier attitude to the 'command' and mandate that God is One, and He is the One and Only. That is God 101, that is the foundation of our understanding of God. It makes no sense to move past that point, to another.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:01 am

Indeed, JR, the claim that Jesus is Lord of lords is a serious claim. We'd have to add the title "Lord of Lord of lords."

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Paidion » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:07 am

I wrote:I still aver that no occurence of the word "theos" (God) in the New Testament refers to the Trinity. If you think you know a verse in which it does, please quote it. But first try substituting "The Trinity" for the word "God" in the verse and see if it makes any sense.
Dizerner wrote:Hear O Israel: Yahweh, our Trinity, Yahweh is One. Thou shalt love Yahweh your Trinity with all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength.
Hmmm... I can't seem to find the quote of your first sentence in the New Testament. Your second sentence is found there, but when Jesus said it, I think He meant the Father. But I agree that substituting "Trinity" for "God" in this sentence would make sense to a Trinitarian.

But even in the Old Testament we find that TWO share the name "Yahweh":

Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Yahweh out of heaven. (Gen 19:24)

According to this verse (taken together with previous ones), the One who met Abraham, the One whom Abraham addressed as "Yahweh," was the means of raining the brimstone and fire. But He did it FROM "Yahweh out of heaven." One Yahweh in heaven, and One on earth.
Was the One on earth the Son of God? And the One in heaven the Father? Justin Martyr thought so. In the verse you quoted, Dizerner, the phrase "Yahweh is One" may not mean that Yahweh is a single divine Individual, but it may refer to the same unity to which Jesus referred when He said, "The Father and I are one."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Jose
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:42 pm

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Jose » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:39 am

jriccitelli wrote:God is One, and He is the One and Only. That is God 101, that is the foundation of our understanding of God. It makes no sense to move past that point, to another.
Hi JR,

Do you think that Jesus and his peers would have graduated from their God 101 classes with an understanding that God is a trinity? Could you imagine Jesus coming home and telling his mother about how learned that Deut 6:4 really means that YHWH is a divine essence with multi personalities?

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:26 pm

Jesus is the Word. Neither did Jesus have to go home and say to mom, 'hey I just read where the bible says I am God' (He always knew). Jose, all I can think is, I really don't know where you are coming from. That's the point Jesus did not have to learn who He was - He knew who He was, before Abraham that is. Jesus is One with the Father, I and the Father are One. Jose bible 101 is that there is no one who is one with God, except of course God.

I said 101 is: 'God is One - there is Only One God - there is no other - and God will not share His glory with another'. It is known as monotheism Jose. Monotheism is theology 101.You have God laying out this mandate and rule from beginning to end. A Jesus who is not God has no value, you are putting your trust in a creature, another god, all the while God has made CLEAR COMMANDS and mandates to put our trust in nothing and no one but God.

I have been involved in at least three on going bible study groups, from Hosea, Ezekiel, Genesis, now Zechariah, page after page after page after page, warnings against following any other God or gods, or making up and following idols. No other gods or idols or things false that the people were putting their faith in and leading them astray, disobeying and into Gods wrath. What sort of bible studies are you doing?? how can you study the OT without seeing this? Are others in your group?
But even in the Old Testament we find that TWO share the name "Yahweh":
Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Yahweh out of heaven. (Gen 19:24) (paidion)
Paidion your reading of this and Justin is completely a mystery. I do not know how you get this from either, and we already discussed this. Justins letter doesn't support your thesis, for one Justin is a monotheist and He believed Jesus is God, Justin is in no way contradicting himself. And still, you are trying to Justin-fy your belief in two gods.

Post Reply

Return to “Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology”