"in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"

[steve7150]

In Phil 2.10 Paul was quoting from Isaiah 45 that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess before Yahweh but he made two changes.
"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Obviously he substituted the name of Jesus for Yahweh but in addition Paul added the phrase "and under the earth."

According to Robin Parry "In Isaiah only the living were in mind. All the survivors of the nations would bow , but the dead were dead. Not so here" , even those under the earth meaning the dead will bow the knee and confess Jesus as Lord.
Parry says "All creatures confess Jesus Christ is Lord. Elsewhere in Paul's letters when he speaks of confessing Jesus as Lord it is always in a context of salvation. (1 Cor 12.3) (Rom 10.9). There are no examples from Paul of an involuntary confession of Christ's Lordship. The word translated as "confess" (exomologeomai) is a word almost always meaning praise. Throughout the LXX version of the Psalms it is used of the joyful and voluntary praise of God."
Think of a court of law which would throw out a coerced confession, would God do less?

[Jepne]

So, it must be a voluntary confession, and God would surely not throw that out! Is this what you are getting at? I wonder why this post was not responded to - perhaps it was covered in another thread? I have not stayed up-to-date on what is happening here.

[steve7150]

it must be a voluntary confession, and God would surely not throw that out! Is this what you are getting at?










Thanks for replying Jepne. Yes it seems voluntary & not coerced and what would the point be of Paul saying this be, if annihilation or eternal torment followed. It wouldn't add up. Also Paul expands this group to include everyone which if you take it literally is a strong validation of CU.

[BrotherAlan]

But keep in mind, too, that in Scripture the demons sometimes confess the truth of Jesus being Lord, despite the fact that Jesus and the demons are in opposition to each other. For example, the demon(s) in Mark 1 cried out to Jesus, "What have we to do with you, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us?" (Mk 1: 24a) Thus we see the opposition that exists between Christ and the demons. The demon then says, "I know who you are, the Holy One of God." (Mk 1:24b) Thus showing that, despite the fact that the demon and Christ are opposed to each other, the demon still confesses that Jesus is Lord. But, his confession of this truth is not a confession of praise and joy (for, the demon is opposed to Christ). A clear sign of this lack of praise and joy in the demon's confession is the fact that Christ rebukes the demon (Mk 1:25) for speaking thus (but Christ would not rebuke one for confessing His Holiness with praise and joy). So, a confession of Christ's Lordship can be given without the proper dispositions of praise and joy (and, so, those "under the earth" shall confess that "Jesus Christ is Lord!" but that does not mean that they shall like confessing this fact!)

In Christ,
Brother Alan

[Paidion]

The demon does not confess that Jesus is Lord. He merely states that he knows the Jesus is the "Holy One of God." Confessing that Jesus is Lord is tantamount to confessing to be under His authority.

Therefore I want you to understand that ... no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit. (1Corinthians 12:3)

[Homer]

The demon does not confess that Jesus is Lord. He merely states that he knows the Jesus is the "Holy One of God." Confessing that Jesus is Lord is tantamount to confessing to be under His authority.

But this is the exact same confession Peter makes on behalf of the Twelve:

John 6:68-69
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

68. Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69. We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

In the Greek text the phrase "the Holy One of God" is exactly the same in Mark 1:24 (demon), Luke 4:34 (demon), and John 6:69 where Peter clearly refers to Jesus as Lord.

Confessing the obvious, the irrefragable fact, isn't a confession of faith at all.

[Paidion]

Confessing the obvious, the irrefragable fact, isn't a confession of faith at all.

Thank you! That is my very point. The demons on earth, confessing that Jesus is the Holy One of God, were merely confessing a fact; they were not confessing Jesus as Lord!
So their confession in no way indicated that they were under Christ's authority. But when the time comes that they confess that Jesus is Lord, this is quite a different matter! For a person to confess Jesus as Lord is tantamount to that person confessing Jesus as his Lord — in other words, to come under Jesus' authority.

I quote again the following verse:

Therefore I want you to understand that ... no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit. (1Corinthians 12:3)

So if those "under the earth", whether lost human beings or demons, will confess Jesus as their Lord, they can do so only in the Holy Spirit. They, too, will have come under the authority of Christ in that day.

...for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” (Romans 14:11)

And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:8-11)

And this "should bow" does not mean "ought to bow". It is a subjunctive.

Oh, by the way, thank you Homer, for introducing me to the word "irrefragable." I had never encountered this word previously. I suppose I would have used "irrefutable" in that context.

[BrotherAlan]

Yes, I, too, had never heard of the word "irrefragable"! But, I do see that it is a perfectly legitimate word (irrefragable, adj., "not to be disputed or contested")....so, yea, thanks Homer! I see that this forum is good not only for theological discussions, but for simple "vocab" building!

So, going back to the question at hand....
I would argue that, implied in the statement, "Jesus is the Holy One of God", is the statement that "Jesus is Lord". However, leaving aside that question (i.e., the question, "What is meant/implied in saying that Jesus is the 'Holy One of God'?"), I think it is better now to consider what exactly is meant when Scripture says that, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except in the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor. 12:3)

For, according to 1 Cor. 12:3, it would seem that any creature-- whether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth (cf., Phil. 2:11)-- who confesses that Jesus is Lord must be doing so under the influence of the Holy Spirit. However, at this point, we have a difficulty; for, in the Gospel, we hear Christ speak, "Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt 7:21). Now, if it is the case that it is the Holy Spirit who leads a man "along the right path", i.e., into the kingdom of heaven (cf., Psalms 143:10), how can one who says, "Lord, Lord" not enter the kingdom of heaven if, in fact, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except in the Holy Spirit"? We do well to consider this.

I think the answer first lies in making a distinction between two meanings of someone speaking "in the Holy Spirit". For, in one way, one speaks "in the Holy Spirit", Who is moving, and possessed by, the speaker. Examples of this abound in the Scriptures, eg., "Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Blessed art thou [Mary] among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And how have I deserved the the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:60) In this way, the speaker not only speaks with his mouth, but he reveres Christ with his heart, and seeks to obey him in his deeds. It is the confession made by the friends of Christ, and it is this kind of confession that Paul is primarily referring to in 1 Cor. 12:3.

And, yet, in another way, it could be said that a person speaks "in the Holy Spirit" insofar as the Holy Spirit moves that person to speak, but the Holy Spirit is not possessed by the heart of that person. For example, the Holy Spirit may move the hearts of certain men to speak, even though He does not dwell in them by grace, as was the case with the wicked high priest Caiphas, who, unwittingly, was moved by the Holy Spirit to utter prophecy concerning Christ's Passion (see John 11:49). An argument can be made that the same thing occurred with Balaam (in Numbers 23-24). In this case, we can speak of one confessing a truth "in the Holy Spirit", even if one does not himself possess the Spirit, by the simple fact that one speaks a truth of the Faith (which truths come by special revelation of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth). In this qualified/secondary sense of speaking "in the Holy Spirit", it could be said that even those who are not in friendship with Christ (which includes those who are "under the earth") still confess that Jesus is Lord "in the Holy Spirit". That is, in simply professing a truth revealed by the Holy Spirit (as did the wicked Caiphas), they can be said to be speaking "in the Holy Spirit"; but, they do not possess the Holy Spirit within their hearts (and so, unlike the just, the wicked honor Christ only with their lips, and not also with their hearts and deeds....and, for this reason, according to Christ's own words, they do not enter the kingdom of heaven).

In Christ,
BrotherAlan

"Jesus Christ is Lord!" (Phil. 2:11)

[steve7150]

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,










My thanks also to you Homer for expending my vocabulary. A couple of points, the first is that in addition to confessing Jesus as Lord we have the knee bowing which IMHO implies sincerity.
So the knee bends and the mouth confesses which indicates one action confirming the other. Lastly the entire statement by Paul wouldn't really mean very much if some folks are either insincerely making the confession or if God is forcing them to make it.

[Paidion]

BrotherAlan,

I appreciate the spirit in which you expressed your understanding, and the tone of respect throughout it. But I ask, what does the passage below really mean?

And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:8-11)

Suppose a king of a certain nation sends out his troops and conquers another country. The king then has three options: (1) kill all the citizens of the country, (2) make all the citizens his slaves and force them to obey, (3) win the hearts of the citizens so that willingly they will be his subjects.

Which victory will be more complete? (1), (2), or (3)?

In the passage quoted above which victory is more complete?
(1) Jesus annihilates all His enemies.
(2) Jesus forces them to bow the knee by hitting them behind the knee with a 2 by 4 and forces them to recognize that He is Lord of creation.
(3) Through LOVE, Jesus wins the hearts of his enemies so that they will willingly worship Him and confess Him as their Lord.

As I see it, Jesus' victory will not be complete until ALL of His enemies and other non-disciples, willingly submit. In this life, probably over 99% of all human beings have never submitted to Christ (consider the millions who have never even heard of Him, and the millions who are atheists, or adherents to one of the non-Christian religions). If that vast majority die without Christ, and are either annihilated or remain rebels forever, then who is the victor? Christ or Satan? But if Christ wins them all to Himself, or does whatever it takes to win them, then we have a clear Victor!