The Holy Spirit: Person or Power?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Holy Spirit: Person or Power?

Post by darinhouston » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:42 pm

I think all of them suffer from the same presuppositional difficulty. Take Job for example.

Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

The same that is said of the "Spirit" seems to be said of the "breath". Surely, you don't see "breath" as a fourth person, huh?

There is something active about the "Spirit" of Christ/God, but that doesn't equate in my mind to a distinct "personality."

In the end, I agree with Homer and don't think it matters, but it does bother me that it seems to matter so much in the Creeds, and in our churches. I'm ok either way, I just don't see it unequivocal, and the uses by Paul in preambles and such where he tends to speak only of the Father and the Son carries a lot of weight to me. I just don't see a trinitarian understanding in the writings of the apostles. If it's ok for them why not us? I'm ok with a bit of mystery in this area. Unfortunately, this has become a source of dogma and you are typically considered a heretic if you don't ascribe to traditional trinitarian views. I do find it interesting that virtually none of the apologetics against non-trinitarians seem directed to the personality of the Holy Spirit, but instead seem to relate to the divinity (not even the personality) of Christ.

User avatar
look2jesus
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:18 pm
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: The Holy Spirit: Person or Power?

Post by look2jesus » Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:54 pm

Hello Darin,

I agree with you that the example in Job is not a good one, perhaps, but you wrote,
I think all of them suffer from the same presuppositional difficulty.
I don't think that you can so easily dismiss all the other examples as suffering from the same presuppositional difficulties, especially, I would say, Romans 8:26-27. I may indeed be viewing these verses through a certain paradigm but when I see certain characteristics attributed to some one or some thing, such as an ability to speak, hear, foretell and reveal things, teach, witness, testify, establish overseers in the church, intercede for the saints, lead and direct the saints, etc., as well as this person or thing possessing a mind and having an ability to discern God's will and direct our prayers, together with the apparant emotional attributes that are sometimes ascribed to Him I find it rather easy, if not compelling, to see this 'entity' as a person.

Having said that, I agree entirely with this,
In the end, I agree with Homer and don't think it matters, but it does bother me that it seems to matter so much in the Creeds, and in our churches. I'm ok either way, I just don't see it unequivocal, and the uses by Paul in preambles and such where he tends to speak only of the Father and the Son carries a lot of weight to me. I just don't see a trinitarian understanding in the writings of the apostles. If it's ok for them why not us? I'm ok with a bit of mystery in this area. Unfortunately, this has become a source of dogma and you are typically considered a heretic if you don't ascribe to traditional trinitarian views. I do find it interesting that virtually none of the apologetics against non-trinitarians seem directed to the personality of the Holy Spirit, but instead seem to relate to the divinity (not even the personality) of Christ.
Take care, brother
l2j
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowlege and discernment...Philippians 1:9 ESV

User avatar
Suzana
Posts: 503
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:09 am
Location: Australia

Re: The Holy Spirit: Person or Power?

Post by Suzana » Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:53 pm

Being one of those non-trinitarian heretics, I was reading l2j's list last night, but with a deliberate pre-supposition that the Holy Spirit was NOT a separate person, to see if the verses would still make sense.
Most of them did actually. Some of them would certainly make one pause & wonder (I didn't make notes of which &don't have time now). However, I do remember one that really stood out to be problematic to my pre-supposition:

Joh 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

To me, this implies that, if the Holy Spirit wished to, he could speak on his own initiative, & that would indicate a separateness. Perhaps there may be a different slant possible in interpreting the original.

In any case, I agree with others that an exact understanding isn't (or shouldn't be) crucial, and it's probably impossible anyway for us at this time, in our finiteness to grasp the mystery that is God.

Actually, as I was going through the list of verses last night, I stopped reading in order to examine the particular question being addressed, and started again just to read - I found some truths that I needed to hear just then, encouraging & strengthening to me at this particular time.
(An example of the Holy Spirit at work, through God's word, irrespective of my lack of understanding of all the finer details).
Suzana
_________________________
If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Holy Spirit: Person or Power?

Post by darinhouston » Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:10 pm

Yep -- I have no problem seeing the spirit as "personal" because for either of our positions it's not an "impersonal" force.

The difference I think is that I see it not as a separate "impersonal" force but as possibly the very spiritual essence of Christ Himself or the Father Himself (or both). As such, it makes some sense to me for one to refer to it with a personal pronoun (we really don't have anything to compare it to in our ordinary vocabulary, so conclusions from that fact are hard to justify). I just have trouble seeing a scriptural reason to see it as a "separate" person. If my very spirit weren't bound to my "self" and could indwell another individual or act upon them (somehow God's spirit can do things mine can't do, no doubt) then it might be well for them to refer to that part of me which influenced or guided them or communed with them as "he" instead of "it." That doesn't speak to the "separateness" of its personality. Maybe that's splitting hairs, but that seems to me to be the essence of the debate for binitarian vs. trinitarian positions. The first question is not whether the Holy Spirit is a part of the godhead, it's whether the godhead is expressed in three persons or two. Once you establish that, then the next question may be how does the Holy Spirit relate to one or both of the "persons" of the godhead.

I don't see anything inconsistent with the Spirit referenced in Rom 8 being associated with the spiritual nature of Jesus instead of a separate person. Perhaps it is not the bodily Jesus that tangibly speaks to the Father on our behalf, but since the Father is Spirit (as I understand it, the Father lacks bodily form), it could be that the Spirit of Jesus is the one that makes intercession.

It's pretty academic, of course, but as you seem to agree such an academic question is worth discussing but not worth holding as dogma.

One thought for you -- if it's a separate person, why is it that Christ had to return before the comforter could come?

One theory I've played with is the possibility that prior to the incarnation, the Word was Spirit alone as was the Father (distinct or not), that in the Incarnation that Spirit became Flesh and Jesus embodied and was filled with the fullness of the Spirit-form of the pre-incarnate Word and that this Spirit was what communicated then with the Father and still does. They were inextricable while on Earth prior to his glorification, but after his glorification, there was no earthly bound flesh but a different kind of body that was somehow less distinct from His Spirit (I otherwise still can't figure out where Christ's body is if it is the same sort of body He had/we have).

Bottom line, though, I think to talk with any authority about something which is clearly extra-dimensional and seemingly not tied in any way to time or space as if it were "matter" (or even "energy") is just bound to lead to error no matter what position we hold.

User avatar
look2jesus
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:18 pm
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: The Holy Spirit: Person or Power?

Post by look2jesus » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:19 am

Darin,

I was going over John 16 with this subject in mind and it seemed to me to that, taken in the most natural way, one would not have to come to the text with any presupposition that the Holy Spirit was a distinct person in order to get that impression. As I say, it seems the most natural way to take it.

Joh 16:1 ¶ "These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling.
2 "They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.
3 "These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me.
4 "But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.
5 "But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?'
6 "But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
7 ¶ "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.


I'm curious. How is it that, without presupposing trinitarian ideas, verses 7-8 and 13-15 can be understood as not making a clear distinction between Jesus, the Father, and the Helper? The way I see it, if you look at what Jesus taught us about the relationship between Himself and the Father and between Himself and the Helper, beginning in chapter 14 of John, it's clear that these relationships go far beyond the kind that you and I have. But as I was thinking about these things I had to ask myself, and I'll ask you, why do we see Jesus as a separate person and not, perhaps, as simply the essence of the Father? Reading John 14:7-11 one might get that impression. I think there is a strong resemblence in the way the scripture speaks of the relationship between Jesus and His Father and the way they speak of the relationship between Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Especially here in John. This similarity doesn't prove trinitarianism or disprove binitarianism but it does shine a light on the mystery of it all. If it weren't for the way that Jesus Himself speaks about the Holy Spirit in these three chapters, I might more easily entertain the "power only" view of the Holy Spirit, but I just can't get past that. How do you see these chapters?

l2j
Last edited by look2jesus on Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowlege and discernment...Philippians 1:9 ESV

User avatar
look2jesus
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:18 pm
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: The Holy Spirit: Person or Power?

Post by look2jesus » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:56 am

Darin,

I forgot to answer your question.
One thought for you -- if it's a separate person, why is it that Christ had to return before the comforter could come?
I think you meant 'had to depart' not 'had to return'. Assuming that that is the case I don't see any problem with this statement at all. You seem to be suggesting that perhaps Jesus couldn't send the Spirit (or His spirit) until after He ascended because while He (i.e. Jesus) was on earth, His spirit was still residing in Him. But the fact that He waited to send Him does not indicate that it was necessary for Him to ascend first, it could be simply a matter of choice. However, the fact that Jesus told the disciples in John 14 that they already knew the Spirit because He (the Spirit) was presently abiding "with" them and would later be "in" them, shows that Jesus and the Spirit are distinct and were shown to be present on earth at the same time before the ascension. (Unless, of course, you argue that the Spirit was abiding with the disciples in the person of Jesus, which would make Jesus' words sound very unnatural, to say the least.)
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowlege and discernment...Philippians 1:9 ESV

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Holy Spirit: Person or Power?

Post by darinhouston » Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:08 pm

I don't have time to respond in detail now, but will later. For now, I note the personal pronoun used in John 16 isn't in the greek and is implied in the texts. I believe it can be properly translated "when that one" comes (at least as noted in the New English Translation footnotes).

I have some other observations with this text and your response anon.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Holy Spirit: Person or Power?

Post by darinhouston » Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:44 pm

My son had a little longer nap/quiet time than I anticipated, so here's a quick hit response....

First, I do see what you're saying -- this whole issue is a bit opaque, which is part of the problem. Certainly, standing alone, I agree that this would give one the impression that He was talking about a separate entity (or "person" if you will). However, if this was all we had on the subject, we might wonder whether this separate Helper was more akin to a messenger/angel than a member of the godhead, particularly the part about not speaking of his own initiative, etc. I acknowledge my reading of this passage does assume one is trying to harmonize the text with an understanding consistent with a two-person godhead. In that way, it's actually more natural to assume the Helper isn't any part of the godhead (separate person or not). However, I don't think the rest of Scripture bears that out since Jesus seems to be talking about Himself dwelling with us and this is how I see that being done.

A couple of things are worth noting.

Jesus does not say in verse 3 "they have not known the Father or Me or the Helper." Why not?

The fact that Jesus would "send Him" in 7 doesn't negate the possibility that the the Helper is a part of Him.

Verse 7 doesn't say the Helper "can't" come until He goes away (I meant return as in "return to Heaven"), but it does imply that to me. "Will not" is pretty strong.

v. 13 sounds a lot like the way Jesus talked about Himself (not speaking on His own initiative but what He hears, presumably from the Father).
However, the fact that Jesus told the disciples in John 14 that they already knew the Spirit because He (the Spirit) was presently abiding "with" them and would later be "in" them, shows that Jesus and the Spirit are distinct and were shown to be present on earth at the same time before the ascension. (Unless, of course, you argue that the Spirit was abiding with the disciples in the person of Jesus, which would make Jesus' words sound very unnatural, to say the least.)
Yes, that is what I propose, and it's no more unnatural than the way Jesus often spoke (a little opaque, yes)

User avatar
look2jesus
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:18 pm
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: The Holy Spirit: Person or Power?

Post by look2jesus » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:54 pm

Darin,

Thanks for your reply. It's an interesting topic with not very clear biblical information to go on. I must admit that it's hard to set aside some of the traditional ideas that we've been raised with and think 'outside the box' , but in many areas, when I've done just that, I've come to a very different understanding than what I had thought previously. So, thanks for spurring me on to more study in this area.

l2j
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowlege and discernment...Philippians 1:9 ESV

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Holy Spirit: Person or Power?

Post by darinhouston » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:14 pm

Bear in mind I'm not really convinced one way or the other, but like the notions of hell we don't have a lot to work with here and my inclination is that the traditional view is less likely to be true than some alternative (maybe not my present understanding, but probably something God has chosen not to reveal).

This doctrine is even more likely to be seen in many demoniations/churches as a test of spiritual maturity than the eternal fate of the unbeliever, which I believe is unfortunate because dogma with scant or at least somewhat ambiguous biblical support is dangerous in my opinion.

I also think it's telling that virtually no one you ask who is "convinced" of the traditional creeds on the Trinity have ever even considered the personality of the Holy Spirit even when they have done with Jesus.

Post Reply

Return to “Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology”