Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate

Post by darinhouston » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:03 am

Singalphile wrote:
steve wrote:I began to consider the possibility that Jesus, before His birth, was "the Word" who was also God, but that the title "Son of God" did not apply to Him until He was born of God through the womb of Mary."
If that is the case, would it follow that the title of "the Father" didn't apply to the Father until "the Son" was born through the womb of Mary?
This is essentially the Arian view (except that I believe he considered Sonship to have begun when the pre-incarnate Word was created). The notion that this meant that there was a time before that in which God was not yet a Father was what troubled Alexander and then others such as Athanasius. This implied that God was mutable. They seemed less concerned with the idea that the Logos was part of the godhead than they were that God couldn’t change (being not a Father and then becoming a Father) They replied that the Word/Son was not only pre-incarnate but that the begetting was eternal. This was essentially the Arian debate. I think the Trinitarian objection was really stupid. If they contend the Son is just as much God as the Father, then how did they have such a problem with the Father’s mutability when they didn’t seem to have any problem with the Son’s greater mutability (from the pre-incarnate Word to a man emptied of His prerogatives in the incarnation and kenosis)? That this hair-splitting is the origin of the Trinitarian dogma is highly relevant. I think they all missed the point, but the Trinitarians seem to have had the worst argument and over-reaction to Arius. I would be surprised if today’s staunch Trinitarians had any real objection to Arius’ views if they really understood them. I don’t agree with him but on different grounds.


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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Paidion » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:21 pm

In Colossians 1:15, Paul states that Jesus is "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
Paul didn't merely state that Jesus existed prior to His birth from Mary but was the firstborn of all creation. In some sense, He was born before anything else was born or created, and must therefore have been God's Son from the beginning.

In the letter of Ignatius (A.D. 30-107) to the Ephesians in Chapter 18 refers to "the Son of God who was begotten before all ages." (some translate this as "before time began." If the Son was begotten then as the first of God's acts, He must have been God's Son from the beginning.
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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by steve » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:06 pm

Hi Paidion,

My understanding of Colossians 1:15 comes from the similar phrase three verses later, in v.18. There, Paul says Jesus is the "firstborn from the dead" (Jesus used the same imagery of Himself in Revelation 1:5).

I believe that this phrase, like the similar expression in 1 Corinthians 15:20, calling Christ "the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep," means that what happened to Christ in His resurrection (i.e., His glorification and immortalization) was prototypical of what will happen to all the creation (cf., Romans 8:18-23).

When Jesus returns, there will be "no more curse" on the creation (Rev.22:3). Death and disorder will be no more (Rev.21:4). The creation itself will be, as Jesus was, "delivered from the bondage of decay" (Rom.8:21). So will we, in coming out of our graves glorified. In this way, Jesus is not simply the first of the dead bodies to rise in the realm of the new order, but those who experience such re-creation in His train will include all the dead and the fallen creation itself. Thus, Jesus is not only the "firstborn" of the dead bodies, but of the whole creation as well.

When Paul calls Him the "firstborn of all creation," then, he is not referring to Christ's origins—merely as the first artifact of the ancient creation activity of God. Rather, he is speaking of Christ's resurrection as the vanguard of the entire creation's restoration.

I have found no commentators who agree with me concerning this verse. However, I think that Paul interprets himself in this passage, so I may have to stand alone in my view.

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Homer » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:17 pm

Hi Steve,

You wrote:
I have found no commentators who agree with me concerning this verse. However, I think that Paul interprets himself in this passage, so I may have to stand alone in my view.
You gave a very good answer that makes very good sense of the scriptures referenced. And you are not alone as 3Resurrrections posted this on Monday:
Anochria's point was correct, that Hebrews 5:5 was clear enough when it interprets the messianic overtones of Psalms 2. God Himself gave to Christ the glory of a deathless high priesthood that day of His resurrection and ascension. That very day was the day Christ was "begotten" by His Father. Something was "birthed" on that day that had never existed before from eternity past until then: the bodily-resurrected Son of Man with that glorified human form was brought near before the Ancient of Days in heaven, and received a crown of the high priesthood of God's kingdom, based on the deathless order of Melchizedek. No other individual ever has or ever will be able to share that title of "The First-begotten", which was given exclusively to Christ on the day He was resurrected and ascended to heaven for the first time - the first of many brethren. This "begotten" status described an event that was totally separate from The Word becoming flesh incarnate.

Darin wrote:
I think the Trinitarian objection was really stupid. If they contend the Son is just as much God as the Father, then how did they have such a problem with the Father’s mutability when they didn’t seem to have any problem with the Son’s greater mutability (from the pre-incarnate Word to a man emptied of His prerogatives in the incarnation and kenosis)?
Interesting, Darin. I fail to see how God's immutability has any bearing, one way or another, on the trinitarian question. Looking at the scriptures that speak of God's immutability it appears that all, or the great majority, speak of God's purpose and character and say nothing about God's ability to do something. "Nothing is impossible for God". The Old Testament appears to inform of several times that God appeared to man. I believe that "The Angel of the Lord" was God appearing in the pre-incarnate form of Christ for example. Did God change in doing so? I would say not.

We further read that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever". But Jesus changed in the sense of going from his pre-incarnate state ("emptied Himself") to His human state to His glorified state, yet He is correctly said to always be the same.

IMO biblical statements about God's immutability are irrelevant to the trinity, binity, or whatever arguments.

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Paidion » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:17 pm

Hi Steve, you wrote:My understanding of Colossians 1:15 comes from the similar phrase three verses later, in v.18. There, Paul says Jesus is the "firstborn from the dead"


That is correct. However two verses later, Paul says, "And he is before all things."

The word translated as "before" is the Greek word "προ" (pro) which Strongs Greek Concordance states as meaning "prior to." If that is the case in this context, it seems to be implied that Jesus existed before everything else. That would be consistent with His having been the firstborn of all creation. Yet, Strong also suggests that "prior to" may be used figuratively in the sense of "superior to."
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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:55 pm

I think Steve has it exactly right and I really can’t see it any other way.
Homer wrote:IMO biblical statements about God's immutability are irrelevant to the trinity, binity, or whatever arguments.
I understand and I would tend to agree that it should not be relevant. But in that position, you would join me at being at odds with Alexander and Athanasius and many at Nicea. If I understand correctly, this was the initial and primary objection to Arius’ position and the underlying purpose underlying the “eternally begotten” language in the creed. This was in response to the notion that there was a time at which the Son was not. And as I understand it, they weren’t trying so much to preserve Jesus’ co-eternality as they were trying to preserve the immutability of the Father since if there was a time in which God was a Father and a time in which He was not, then He changed. And God cannot change (except, apparently, in the case of the Son).


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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by 3Resurrections » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:27 pm

Hi Paidion,

Your argument might have more weight if Colossians 1:17 said that "He WAS before all things..." The fact that it uses the present tense, "He IS before all things" would seem to give Strong's "superior to" figurative sense to this instead. Especially since the very next verse 18 talks about Christ being the "head" of the church, and having "pre-eminence" in all things.

I'm finding that most of the translations render the phrase "Firstborn of all creation" to read "First-born OVER all creation", or "First-born OVER every creature"; the intended sense of that phrase conveying the importance of Christ's dominion, or that "pre-eminence" over all other created things - not the chronological order of who came into existence first in that list of created things.

It shouldn't confuse us that scripture chooses to say that the "First-born" created all things. This doesn't have to mean Christ had achieved that "First-born" status prior to the creation of the world and everything in it. We make statements using expressions of speech like this all the time. For example, a man could say, "My wife went to kindergarten at such-and-such a school." Obviously, the little girl who had once gone to that kindergarten class was not a 5-year-old wife at the time. Or, we might say, "My grandfather fought during the D-day invasion." Obviously, a toothless older man with a cane was not sent into battle back then.

Scripture does the same thing, sometimes in reverse. For example, Genesis 26:23 says that Isaac, after digging a well at Rehoboth, "went up from thence to Beersheba". We know that location hadn't even been given that name yet, because in verse 33, it says that Isaac a short time later gave that place the name of "Shebah" because he had just made an oath to Abimelech there, and that "therefore, the name of the city is Beersheba unto this day." So this shows us that scripture can refer to something by a proper name before it ever comes into existence under that title.

Another example from Acts 4:27 says that "...against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel were gathered together..." Of course, Jesus was not anointed as a young child. Neither was He the age of a child when He was on trial. It's just an expression of speech, in the same way that scripture says that the "First-born" created all things. It just means that the being called "The Word", who became known later on as the "First-born" after his resurrection, was present from eternity past, "by whom the worlds were made" (Heb. 1:2).

I also agree with Steve that Col. 1:18's "First-born from among the dead" pinpoints the timing of when this title of "Firstborn" was given to Christ - at His resurrection and ascension. There was no group of dead ones in the grave when the planet was created, that Christ could have been taken out from among them at that time to become the "First-born" out of that group.

Paidion, I would like a little input from you and any others on a verse that makes me scratch my brain a bit on this "First-born", or "First-begotten" subject. It's Hebrews 1:5, using the way the KJV margin renders it, and which a few other translations duplicate. "And when He bringeth AGAIN the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Translated this way, it sounds as if The Word, (known later on by the title of the "First-begotten" after the day of His resurrection and ascension), had been present in the world a couple of times at the very least, because it says that God brought Him AGAIN into the world. Was this command of God to the angels to worship Him given at His birth in Bethlehem? Or at His return to the earth to meet with His disciples on His resurrection day, just after He had ascended to the Father for the first time that morning? Was this former time of being "in the world" referring to the occasion during creation week when God said "Let us make man in our image? Or would these former times of being "in the world" just be referring to occasions like the special appearances of "The Angel of the Lord", as Homer has brought up? Chewing on this one....

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by darinhouston » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:49 am

3Resurrections wrote:Paidion, I would like a little input from you and any others on a verse that makes me scratch my brain a bit on this "First-born", or "First-begotten" subject. It's Hebrews 1:5, using the way the KJV margin renders it, and which a few other translations duplicate. "And when He bringeth AGAIN the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Translated this way, it sounds as if The Word, (known later on by the title of the "First-begotten" after the day of His resurrection and ascension), had been present in the world a couple of times at the very least, because it says that God brought Him AGAIN into the world. Was this command of God to the angels to worship Him given at His birth in Bethlehem? Or at His return to the earth to meet with His disciples on His resurrection day, just after He had ascended to the Father for the first time that morning? Was this former time of being "in the world" referring to the occasion during creation week when God said "Let us make man in our image? Or would these former times of being "in the world" just be referring to occasions like the special appearances of "The Angel of the Lord", as Homer has brought up? Chewing on this one....
I was confused for a moment -- Hebrews 1:5 uses "And again" but is not referencing the begetting at all, but merely noting they were repeating multiple prophetic passages. I think it's Hebrews 1:6 that has you scratching your head. In that passage, I believe the reference is to the future second coming.

You might find this treatment interesting (from http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospe ... ws1_6.html)

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Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

The Trinitarian Claim

Trinitarians claim this passage means that all God's angels were to worship the incarnated infant Jesus and this worship indicates he is God.

The Claim vs. The Facts

The facts show that the verse refers to the risen Jesus, the firstborn out of the dead, and the angels must bow down to him because he became positionally superior to them when he sat down at the right hand of God.

The Problem with the Claim

1. Oikoumene: Not planet earth but "the world to come"

Trinitarians very seriously blunder at Hebrews 1:6, where they perceive the incarnation is in view when they read the words, "when God brings his firstborn into the world." Here they imagine their own incarnation theology into the text.

The normal Greek word for "world" is "kosmos." This is not the Greek word used here. The word used at Hebrews 1:6 is oikoumene and it means something like a "community" or a "population" in a large scale sense, an economy of people. It is where we get our English word "ecumenical" and is a cognate of the word oikonomia where we get our English word "economy." The Greeks used this word in a way similar to our English word "population" or "community" as a reference to a large group of people. Oikoumene comes from the words oikos which means "dwelling" and the present passive participle of oikoumenos from oikeos which means "to inhabit/dwell," "to reside." The cognate word oikonomos is usually translated as "household."

Oikoumene is often translated very loosely as "world" into English since we really do not have an exact equivalent word in English to match the Greek. But the English word "world" can be very misleading here since it leads some people to think it refers to planet earth. But at Hebrews 2:5, the writer explicitly tells us what he means when he uses this word, "For not to angels did He subject the coming oikoumene, about which we are speaking." He tells us plainly that he is not referring to this geographical earth but the "world to come," the heavenly economy of God and His angels.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven. (Hebrews 12:22-23).

Now it gets very, very interesting at this point. The word oikoumene is derived from oikonomia which is from oikonomos, "household" from oikos "house." Now if we look at Hebrews 3:1-5, we will note that the writer emphasizes that Jesus has been appointed as ruling steward of God's household. Indeed, the passage says Jesus was faithful to God who made (poieo) him. The reference here is to God who made him flesh and blood, lower than the angels. Hebrews 1:14, indicating angels are servants, is intended to contrast between servanthood and sonship just as Moses was a servant and Christ a Son (also see Hebrews 2:16). The writer tells us that because Jesus was faithful, God appointed him the stewardship of ruling over God's household and as such he is over the angels who are simply servants of that household. As the risen Jesus is greater than Moses, Jesus is greater than the angels. So what is intended here is the household of God and his angels in heaven.

2. Firstborn: Jesus is the Firstborn out of the Dead

At Hebrews 1:5, the writer quotes the second Psalm, "You are my Son, Today I have begotten you." He is referring this Psalm to Jesus Christ's resurrection when Jesus was begotten/born out of the dead. The very same idea is found at Acts 13:30-36 which says:

God raised him from the dead and for many days he appeared to those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now his witnesses to the people. And we preach to you the Good News of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, just as it is also written in the second Psalm, "You are My son; Today I have begotten you." As for the fact that He [/u]raised him from the dead[/u], no longer to return to corruption, He has spoken in this way: "I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David." Therefore He also says in another Psalm, "You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.’ For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and saw corruption but he whom God raised did not see corruption. (Acts 13:30-36; see 2:27)

Basic reading comprehension shows us that Paul is obviously telling us that the second Psalm, "Today I have begotten you," was fulfilled when God raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus is the firstborn out of the dead (Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5) and for that reason he is the "firstborn of many brothers" (Romans 8:29). He is the first to be begotten out of the dead. For that reason, the second Psalm, "Today I have begotten you" was fulfilled when he rose from the dead.

In the same way as Acts 13:33, it is rather obvious that Hebrews 1:5 refers to Jesus' resurrection.

Having made purification of sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than them. For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are My son, Today I have begotten You"? And again, "I will be a Father to him and he will be a son to Me”?

The entire chapter is about Jesus' and his exalted resurrection glory. He is the firstborn out of the dead and that is what is meant by "firstborn" in verse 6, "when He brings His firstborn into the world." This is also what is meant when the writer quotes 2 Samuel 7:14, "I will be a Father to him and he will be a son to Me. This is true because Jesus is the firstborn out of the dead.

3. "Jesus is worshiped therefore Jesus is God"

The third error with the Trinitarian claim concerns the Greek word proskyneo. This is the word translated as "worship" or "bow down" in most translations. Trinitarians commonly claim this would not occur to Jesus unless he is God. This is simply an outright lie. It is not true that proskyneo "worship" of Jesus therefore means he is God. There are all kinds of examples in the New Testament, and the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which prove that proskyneo "worship" was not something which was appropriately only given to God. Despite these plain facts, Trinitarians continue to perpetuate this falsehood.

In the Bible, proskyneo "worship" was something you did before any higher authority. Because God is a higher authority, people gave God proskyneo "worship." Because angels were a higher authority, Lot gave him proskyneo "worship." Because King David was a higher authority, their Lord, the Israelites gave him proskyneo "worship" (1 Chronicles 29:20; 1 Kings). There are many, many examples in Scripture of people giving proskyneo "worship." It would even be appropriate to give proskyneo "worship" to a teacher because you respect his teaching authority.

Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie - I will make them come and worship (proskyneo at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. Revelation 3:9

Analysis of the Facts
1. When He brings His firstborn into the world

Jesus is the "firstfruit" of those who have risen from the dead (1 Cor 15:23). The facts show that the words "when He brings His firstborn into the world" refer to God bringing His risen son into the heavenly economy of heaven with God and His angels. Jesus is the firstborn out of the dead and the writer also tells us explicitly that he is talking about the "world to come." Therefore, his words obviously mean that he is referring the second Psalm, "Today I have begotten you," to the risen Jesus who sat down at God's right hand. God brought his firstborn, the risen Jesus, into the world to come, the heavenly economy of God and His angels.

2. When Jesus became superior to the angels

Having made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than them.

The reason the angels are to bow down before Jesus is given right here in the immediate context. The reason they must bow down to him is because he become superior to the angels when he sat down at the right hand of God. But he was not always superior to the angels. Before his resurrection he was lower than the angels. Jesus had previously been inferior to the angels but is now crowned with glory and honor.

It has been testified somewhere, "What is man that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that You care for him? You made him a little lower than the angels, you have crowned him with glory and honor, and set him over the works of Your hands. You have put everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. (Hebrews 2:6-10).

The writer here quotes Psalm 8 which refers to men in general who are made a little lower than the angels. Being one of these men, Jesus was just like us having been made a just a little lower than the angels (see 2:14,17). Notice carefully that Jesus the human being was made lower than the angels but because of the suffering of his death he is now is crowned with glory and honor, a reference to the risen Jesus. And the writer further clarifies this by saying all things were put in subjection to him who had suffered death for everyone. That includes the angels and this is why the angels must bow down to the risen and glorified Jesus.

All authority has been given to me in heaven and upon the earth. Matthew 28:18.

[Jesus] is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers having been subjected to him (1 Peter 3:22).

He raised him from the dead and He seated him at His right hand in the heavenlies, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named. Ephesians 1:20-21.
The man Jesus, son of David, was placed above all angelic rule when God seated this man at His right hand. All angelic rule was subjected to Jesus when he sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For that reason, the angels must now bow down to him. He had become superior to them (1:4).

Conclusion

The facts show us beyond any doubt that the writer is referring to God bringing Jesus into the heavenly economy. He tells us explicitly that he is speaking about the "world to come." And because God seated Jesus on His throne at His right hand giving him all authority in heaven and earth, the angels must bow down before Jesus due to his new authority. He had become superior to them. The angels don't bow down to Jesus because he is God; they bow down to Jesus because he became a superior authority to them when he sat down on God's throne at His right hand.

[Jesus] is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers having been subjected to him (1 Peter 3:22).

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Paidion » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:34 pm

Hi Darin, You wrote:At Hebrews 1:5, the writer quotes the second Psalm, "You are my Son, Today I have begotten you." He is referring this Psalm to Jesus Christ's resurrection when Jesus was begotten/born out of the dead.


I am not convinced. I believe the begetting to which this refers is His begetting before all ages—the first of God's acts.

The very same idea is found at Acts 13:30-36 which says:
God raised him from the dead and for many days he appeared to those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now his witnesses to the people. And we preach to you the Good News of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, just as it is also written in the second Psalm, "You are My son; Today I have begotten you." As for the fact that He [/u]raised him from the dead[/u], no longer to return to corruption, He has spoken in this way: "I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David."
I think it is a mistake to believe that Paul is speaking about the resurrection of Christ throughout the whole passage. I think the following words refer to God fulfilling His promise by raising up Jesus to fulfill a mission—just as in our day, we speak of "raising up a man" to do a particular task.

And we preach to you the Good News of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, just as it is also written in the second Psalm, "You are My son; Today I have begotten you."

I see this as saying that God raised up Jesus for the mission of teaching people how to live (Matthew 5, 6, and 7) and then dying on their behalf to deliver them from sin. To raise up such a divine Being, God first begat Him as Another like Himself, "the exact expression of His essence" (Heb 1:3) and then empowered Him to fulfill His mission. Jesus said:

I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. (John 5:30)

Then immediately after, Paul says, "As for the fact that He raised him from the dead, no longer to return to corruption, He has spoken in this way: 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.' "[/quote]

By introducing this sentence with the words "As for the fact..." Paul clearly indicates (in my view) that he is talking about another aspect. The first thing God did was to raise up Jesus for His mission—first by begetting Him, and then by empowering Him to fulfill that mission throughout His life, and finally by dying for the salvation of man. The second thing God did was to raise Him from the dead.
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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Singalphile » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:12 pm

Very interesting, all. Thanks!
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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