Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Paidion » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:36 pm

Hi Darin, you wrote:Some of those who deny Christ’s pre-incarnate existence (in whatever form) would suggest that John 17:5 is referring to Christ praying that what was “with” God was the Logos, the plans or prophecies of the glories of Christ and those who would be “in Him.”
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (John 17:5 ESV)

It seems mighty strange to me that by use of the first person pronoun "I", the Lord Jesus wasn't referring to Himself at all, but really meant "the plans or prophecies of the glories of Christ and those who would be in Him.”

I know if I spoke of having been with my father before I was married, I wouldn't mean that my plans or predictions or glory was with him.
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Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by darinhouston » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:03 pm

Paidion wrote:
Hi Darin, you wrote:Some of those who deny Christ’s pre-incarnate existence (in whatever form) would suggest that John 17:5 is referring to Christ praying that what was “with” God was the Logos, the plans or prophecies of the glories of Christ and those who would be “in Him.”
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (John 17:5 ESV)

It seems mighty strange to me that by use of the first person pronoun "I", the Lord Jesus wasn't referring to Himself at all, but really meant "the plans or prophecies of the glories of Christ and those who would be in Him.”

I know if I spoke of having been with my father before I was married, I wouldn't mean that my plans or predictions or glory was with him.
It’s pretty unusual either way. So when was the lamb slain?

When was grace given to us in 2 Timothy 1:9-10 and where were we when it was given?

I think our reactions to these verses and others really depends on our presuppositions.


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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Singalphile » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:28 am

Homer wrote:I have been waiting for someone to respond to 3Re[s]urrections post on 2/28. I thought she made some interesting points which haven't been responded to.

She wrote:
Because of this necessity for the Son to be sharing the same type of human body form with those He represents, then if we had an "eternal sonship" existing before humanity and the world was established, this would have been pointless. We can't have an "eternal Son" without also having an "eternal Mother" to produce that "eternal Son". That idea veers off into the whole goddess thing (which Mary was not).


It would seem logical to have a mother if there is a son.
That is a good point, 3Resurrections/Homer. (I have been looking into Mormonism a lot, and they have an idea of a mother/goddess, though they don't speak of it much.) However, 3Resurrections, you did already mention that the Father had "sons" even before (or a least at) creation. Wouldn't that imply a mother just as much as if Jesus was called "the son" at that time?

It is interesting, but it is just semantics for me. I hold that Jesus (or "the Word") was personally with the Father prior to His incarnation. The titles are not quite so important. Jesus wasn't called "Jesus" before His incarnation (I think), anyway.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Paidion » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:19 pm

Hi Darin, you wrote:It’s pretty unusual either way. So when was the lamb slain?
Not "before the foundation of the world" according to the following translations:

And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. (ASV)

And all who are on the earth will give him worship, everyone whose name has not been from the first in the book of life of the Lamb who was put to death. (BBE)

and all that dwell on the earth shall do it homage, every one whose name had not been written from the founding of the world in the book of life of the slain Lamb. (Darby)

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. (ESV)

All those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. (HCSB)

And all those who live on the earth will worship him, from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. (LEB)

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. (NAS95)

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been killed. (NHEB)

and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered. (NRSV)

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (RSV)

All the inhabitants of the earth whose names, from the foundation of the world, have not been written in the slaughtered Lamb’s book of life, will worship him. (Williams)

When was grace given to us in 2 Timothy 1:9-10 and where were we when it was given?
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,2 Timothy 1:8-10)

This seems to say that God's "own purpose and grace" was His gift to humanity before all ages, and that gift became manifest when our Saviour Christ Jesus appeared.
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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by darinhouston » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:32 am

Paidion wrote:
Hi Darin, you wrote:It’s pretty unusual either way. So when was the lamb slain?
Not "before the foundation of the world" according to the following translations:

And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. (ASV)

And all who are on the earth will give him worship, everyone whose name has not been from the first in the book of life of the Lamb who was put to death. (BBE)

and all that dwell on the earth shall do it homage, every one whose name had not been written from the founding of the world in the book of life of the slain Lamb. (Darby)

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. (ESV)

All those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. (HCSB)

And all those who live on the earth will worship him, from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. (LEB)

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. (NAS95)

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been killed. (NHEB)

and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered. (NRSV)

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (RSV)

All the inhabitants of the earth whose names, from the foundation of the world, have not been written in the slaughtered Lamb’s book of life, will worship him. (Williams)

When was grace given to us in 2 Timothy 1:9-10 and where were we when it was given?
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,2 Timothy 1:8-10)
Those lamb translations are interesting.

As to Timothy, I don’t think that changes the point that you are “choosing” to ignore that it was not just Chriat that was before the ages but also that the gift was “given” before the ages. This sounds a little like the John passage. Speaking of something that happened in time as if it was before time.


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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by 3Resurrections » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:39 am

Hi Singalphile,

I like this verse in Romans 4:16-17 that gives us a little insight into how God can be called "Father" at creation, prior to having The Word become His Son at the incarnation. Speaking of the heirs of faith, it says, "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to that which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee (past tense) a father of many nations,) like unto Him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and CALLETH THOSE THINGS WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE." This is similar to the point darinhouston is making.

Here we have the example of God already calling Abraham a "father of many nations" when his son Isaac, through whom those nations of faith would later be identified, had not even been conceived yet. Just exactly like God, who could also be called the Father of us all, both Jews and Gentiles, even before the foundation of the world (because the names of His children were written down in the Book of Life even before the world's creation - Rev. 13:8).

I beg leave to differ with you Singalphile, that "the titles are not quite so important". Names and titles are given great import in scripture. Personally, my entire paradigm of eschatology is built upon the name of the "First-begotten" for Christ. The true definition of this name and when it was first given to Christ is how I refute the Full- Preterist position that teaches we do NOT receive a resurrection of our physical bodies, made incorruptible.

If we fail to realize that the title of the "First-begotten" was given to Christ on the very day He arose from the dead and ascended to the Father early that morning, to stand in God's presence in His glorified human form (the VERY FIRST ever to do so of all mankind - no exceptions), then we can't understand that the "many sons" brought unto glory as "fellow heirs" with Christ are promised to share every aspect of that same experience to complete their entire salvation inheritance.

It isn't good enough just to get our resurrected, glorified bodies above ground (as was the case with those like Lazarus or the Matthew 27:52-53 saints). No, our salvation "package" is incomplete until we stand FACE-TO-FACE WITH OUR CREATOR FATHER in those resurrected, glorified body forms of a perfected spirit, soul, AND body. This face-to-face perfected reality was what even Moses longed for most of all. "Show me thy glory", he begged. This is what the Full-Preterist denies, because they disregard the full physical significance of that exclusive "FIRST-begotten" title for Christ. "Many sons" followed after, but Jesus Christ the "FIRST-fruits" was made the "FIRST-born" on that day of the "FIRST resurrection", when He "opened the matrix" for all His siblings to follow later on in AD 70's resurrection, as well as a third resurrection for us in the future. So pleeez don't call it "just semantics". There is major doctrine hanging on this one title, at least.

You also mentioned that if God is called a "Father" before (or at least AT) creation, that this implies the necessity of having a "mother" of sorts to complete the picture. So, if Adam and the angels were all called "sons of God", then you are asking who would be the "mother" of these? I would say the Holy Spirit could be considered the "mother-figure" in the context of "Let US make man in OUR own image..." This was a 3-way communicated thought among the eternal being of The Father, The Word, and The Spirit of God going on here in Genesis. "The LORD our God, the LORD is ONE..." (using the word "echad", which means one in unity, not one in numerical value, since there is supposed to be another Hebrew word for expressing that numerical concept, I am told).

God the Father gives us the main impression of being the originator of actions who provides protective strength; qualities we associate with a human father. God the Spirit gives us the main impression of comfort and sensitivity (such as the ability to be grieved); qualities we associate with the tenderness of a human mother's comfort. God the Word gives us the main impression of communication - an ambassador sent from the Father to multiply the knowledge about the Godhead among mankind, who is outside of the inner circle of the divine Trinity. With the incarnation of The Word who then became the Son, and especially when He became the "First-begotten" on resurrection day when He became our permanent high priest, God established a bridge between that inner circle and fallen man that made it possible for the saints' final, face-to-face union with the Godhead in the resurrection.

Frankly, I think God has a particular fondness for the number "3".

Three dimensions of height, width, and depth to give the perspective of space.
Two or three gathered together in His name, with Him being in their midst.
A three-fold cord not quickly broken.
Three roles of prophet, priest, and king to express wholeness of power.
"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty" - expressed 3 times, to represent the ultimate perfection of the Trinity.
Father, mother, and children, to make a cohesive family unit.
Three promises of blessing to Abraham, with the last, 3rd promise brought by three messengers, to confirm its absolute certainty.
Body, soul, and spirit preserved blameless unto the coming of the Lord, to express our complete salvation experience.
Peter, James, and John in the inner circle of disciples.
The mouth of two, or preferably three witnesses to establish a truthful witness.
Three required OT feasts to celebrate - Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles.
And, shall we also say - three resurrection events for the saints to eternal life, occurring at those three set feast times of the year, in AD 33, AD 70, and AD 3033 respectively.

I like the number "3" also, as you can probably tell.
Last edited by 3Resurrections on Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Paidion » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:04 pm

If we fail to realize that the title of the "First-begotten" was given to Christ on the very day He arose from the dead and ascended to the Father early that morning, to stand in God's presence in His glorified human form...

I cannot realize that, since it just ain't so. "First-begotten" is found nowhere in the Greek New Testament, nor in most translations. The Greek word is "πρωτοτοκος" which means "first born." This word is translated as "first begotten" in the AV, Douay, and JB2013 and in no other English translation of which I am aware. Yet the translators of these versions rendered the same word as "first born" in all other occurrences.

Yes, Christ was truly the first to be born into the resurrection on the very day that God raised Him from the dead. All of the rest of God's children will also be born into the resurrection on that great resurrection day! But this fact does not negate our birth from our mother—nor Christ's birth from His Father before all ages.
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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by 3Resurrections » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:16 pm

Hi Paidion,

I'm okay with using the "First-born" title, since it's virtually interchangeable with Christ being the "First-begotten". My KJV uses "First-begotten" for Christ in Hebrews 1:6 and Revelation 1:5.

So, if you are saying "...Christ was truly the first to be born into the resurrection on the very day that God raised Him from the dead" (agreed), and also that Christ had a "birth from His Father before all ages, then Christ was literally "born AGAIN", from your viewpoint?

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Paidion » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:23 pm

Hi 3R, you wrote:Christ was truly the first to be born into the resurrection on the very day that God raised Him from the dead" (agreed), and also that Christ had a "birth from His Father before all ages, then Christ was literally "born AGAIN", from your viewpoint?
Yep. And we His disciples will be born again when we are raised again to life in the resurrection.
I know Evangelicals and Fundamentalists refer to the entry into the spiritual life in Christ as being "born again" but no NT writer does that,

John 3:3, 3:7 γεννηθη ανωηε (begotten from above)
Almost all translators render the expression as "born from above" or "born again." I consider this to be a mistake.

1 Peter 1:3, 23 αναγενναω (begotten again)
Interestingly, most translators translate this correctly as "begotten again" or "regenerated." The root word "γενναω" (to beget or generate) is the same in John as in 1 Peter.

A baby is begotten or generated when a human sperm unites with an egg, and a human life begins. Then the zygote begins to grow. The fetus grows for 9 months and then is born into the world. So my view is that the spiritual life is analogous to this. When we are first enter the spiritual life, we are spiritually begotten or generated. This can be thought of as being begotten again or regenerated. For our first begetting or generation was our physical one, and our spiritual one is the second.

Just as after our growth in the womb, we were born into the world, so after a life of spiritual growth, we will be born into our resurrection. That will be when we are born again. That will be our rebirth.
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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Singalphile » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:19 pm

Hello, 3Resurrections.

I understand how God might be called "father" prior to, as you say, "having The Word become His Son at the incarnation."

I wasn't saying that I thought a "mother" was necessary. I did think your point about Jesus needing a mother (Mary) in order to be called "son" made sense. But then I thought it was a bit dubious to use that as an argument for calling Jesus "son of God" only at incarnation but then also to refer to God as "father" before that. The parallel to our human idea of "father" can only be carried so far, it would seem.

I have heard the idea of the Holy Spirit as a "mother" or feminine figure. As much as anyone, I think, I shy away from going beyond explicit statements in Scripture (nor do I like to argue with or harangue those who do), and that idea strikes me as well beyond what I would care to affirm or deny.

As for titles, I was referring only to the titles of "the Word" and 'the Son" before the incarnation. Whether or not He was identified as "the Son of God" or "the Word" (or "Jesus"), say, 5 thousand years ago is not important to how I live my life day to day, as far as I can tell. As such, I don't see how it would rise to the level of a major teaching/instruction (or "major doctrine" as you put it). I understand, though, that ideas affect different people differently.

For example, your fondness for the number 3. I like that you like that. Those are interesting and edifying examples, but I can only shrug my shoulders as to whether our God shares that particular fondness. It occurs to me that we could probably find some interesting examples of other numbers as well. And I start to think, well, if God is particularly fond of 3, then why don't we have 3 arms and 3 legs and 3 eyes instead of 2? Maybe He is fond of 2. And so on. And then we split into yet more denominations. ;) :)

Thanks and have a great week!
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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