God and His Son

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Paidion
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Re: God and His Son

Post by Paidion » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:14 pm

Steve, your lemonade analogy is interesting. I want to share my thoughts about this analogy.
Steve, you wrote:in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Young's Literal Translation)

The traditional picture would have led me to expect, "in him doth tabernacle one third of the Godhead bodily."

Jesus, in the nearest thing to an explanation of this mystery that we are likely to get from Him, said: "I am in the Father, and the Father in Me" (John 14:10). What, exactly, does that mean?

Many analogies have been attempted to provide a frame of reference for us to grasp the trinity—there is that of H2O in its three forms (ice, water, and steam); or that of an egg (having a shell, an egg white, and a yolk); or the comparison of the tripartate nature of man; etc. None of these enjoy the sanction of scripture. I have another suggested analogy (which also lacks scriptural endorsement). Lemonade. Yes, I know it sounds corny, but it is helpful to me, so bear with me.

Since God is a Spirit, and the analogies in scripture for spirit are often of liquids (e.g., water, oil)—I feel justified in choosing a familiar liquid for an illustration. There are three ingredients in lemonade—water, lemon, and sugar. Leave one out, and you do not have the right components to have lemonade. Nor is any one of the ingredients, by itself, apart from the others, lemonade. Each component adds its own characteristic to make the sum what it is.

We have difficulty picturing "persons" as being "in" each other, as in Jesus' statement, above. But the ingredients in a liquid solution are truly intermixed and "in" each other.
This analogy does seem to show how the ingredients can be “in” each other, and thus the Father, Son, and Spirit can be “in” each other in the same way. However, you have stated that none of the ingredients by itself apart from the others is lemonade, and this seems to be where the analogy breaks down. For Trinitarians say that each of the members of the trinity is God! Thus “God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit”.

I realize that your next example of dipping a sample of the lemonade is meant to explain how each member can be God --- just as each sample is lemonade. However, this latter illustration, as well as some of the other attempts at analogies of the Trinity, such as the three forms of H2O or the Sun, its rays, and it warmth, etc. seem better illustrations of modalism than Trinitarianism.

Your lemonade analogy is a bit similar to Justin Martyr’s illustration of lighting a small fire from a larger one, both fires being of the same essence, and yet separate. However, in doing so, Justin was not attempting to explain the Trinity (None of his writings mention a Trinity). Rather Justin was illustrating the begetting of the Son as the Father’s first act --- how the Son could be begotten and then be separate from the Father and yet be of the same divine essence.

As for the Father, Son, and Spirit being “in” each other being illustrated by the ingredients of the lemonade, how is that going to work when Christ’s prayer in John 17 is fulfilled, and His disciples will be one “in” the Father and the Son? Does this mean that we disciples will become an ingredient in the lemonade? Will we become part of the Deity? That is exactly what some people believe. It seems to be a tenet of some cultish types.

I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. John 17:20, 21

In my opinion, the JW analogy of the Trinity (which I’m sure Trinitarians will find offensive and blasphemous) is actually the most accurate illustration of which I am aware. They call the Trinity “a three-headed monster”. I don’t mean to be offensive by repeating this ridicule. It is totally inappropriate to use the word “monster”.

But think about it! A single divine Being, the Trinity, with three heads each of which would be a divine Person. I can’t think of a better illustration of a single Being which is yet Three Persons.


But no matter how we try to understand the Trinity, I see no way that Trinitarians can harmonize the concept with the prayer of Christ recorded in John 17:3

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

Jesus was talking to His Father. He called Him “the only true God”. To possess eternal life, one must know “the only true God” AND “Jesus Christ” whom He sent. By use of that conjunction “AND” Jesus identifies Himself as something other than “the only true God”. This is inconsistent with Trinitarianism. Yet, “In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was Deity”. The Logos is Deity because He was begotten by God who is Deity --- in a way that is analogous to each of us being “man” because we were begotten by our father who is or was “man”.

Everywhere the New Testament uses “theos” preceded by the article, the referent is God the Father, if “ho theos” is unqualified by any other adjective or phrase.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: God and His Son

Post by Homer » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:36 am

Darin,

You wrote:
Like Paidion, I also don't like the compound view of God -- I know it's not orthodox, but I prefer to think of God as having different aspects which manifest in different ways -- there's a Word aspect that in some respects is unified with the Father aspect, but somehow can be manifested (perhaps along with the spirit aspect) in things like Christophonies, and the spirit aspect that could be manifested in the pillar of fire, our Comforter, etc.
If I understand you, your position is the same as that which I believe to be the best explanation: not three persons but one God as three simultaneous persona?

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Paidion
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Re: God and His Son

Post by Paidion » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:28 pm

Homer to Darin wrote:If I understand you, your position is the same as that which I believe to be the best explanation: not three persons but one God as three simultaneous persona?
This is a position known as "Oneness" or "modalism" (in its simultaneous form), or in the early centuries: "Sabellianism". This belief predated Trinitarianism, and is currently held by the United Pentecostal Church and by the Apostolic Church.

Many people who think they are Trinitarians actually hold the Oneness position.
Paidion

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Re: God and His Son

Post by darinhouston » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:22 pm

Paidion wrote:
Homer to Darin wrote:If I understand you, your position is the same as that which I believe to be the best explanation: not three persons but one God as three simultaneous persona?
This is a position known as "Oneness" or "modalism" (in its simultaneous form), or in the early centuries: "Sabellianism". This belief predated Trinitarianism, and is currently held by the United Pentecostal Church and by the Apostolic Church.

Many people who think they are Trinitarians actually hold the Oneness position.
I'm not sure "simultaneous persona" or the Sabellian view of modalism is exactly what I believe -- I believe these "essences" or "natures" or "whatever" are simultaneously present at all times, though not in all manifestations. I've not read much on Sabellianism, but I'm not sure I've read anything that states what my gut tells me, and I don't think I have it sufficiently developed in my own mind to even express it well. But, I just don't think the prevailing Trinitarian views (any of them, really) resolve my doubts/suspicions in the matter.

I've also changed my views of both the "person-hood" of the Holy Spirit and the "God"-ness of the man, Jesus, sufficiently over the years to be pretty humble in my present thoughts on the matter. None of them seem to change anything about my profession and life choices as to Christ's resurrection, His Lordship and His role as my Lord and King. Whether his rights are inherent to his Godness or are derived from the Father in His son-ness, it makes very little difference to me but I do have a concern that I not err in or cause one to stumble in Truth and an understanding of the nature of the God we serve. For example, if our view of the Trinity is wrong, then we may have a lot to answer for if we preached it dogmatically and find that it became a stumbling block for some who didn't believe.

As I understand it, the predominant rationale for excommunicating Sabellius over his views was the notion that the doctrine "crucified the Father," which was considered a heretical thought. I'm not sure I understand why it would be ok to hold a doctrine that crucified God the Son as man, but not one that cruicified God the Father as man.

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steve
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Re: God and His Son

Post by steve » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:13 pm

Paidion,

Your comments about my "lemonade" analogy effectively point out either a flaw in the analogy or in the traditional trinitarian explanations. I am not sure which. My explanation may be woefully inadequate. It should be tried by scripture, and if it is found wanting, it should be abandoned as just one more hackneyed attempt to unscrew the inscrutable.

On the other hand, since the traditional wording of the trinitarian formula is extrabiblical, I cannot be certain that these traditional explanations are adequate either.

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Re: God and His Son

Post by Suzana » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:32 pm

darinhouston wrote:...but I do have a concern that I not err in or cause one to stumble in Truth and an understanding of the nature of the God we serve. For example, if our view of the Trinity is wrong, then we may have a lot to answer for if we preached it dogmatically and find that it became a stumbling block for some who didn't believe.
I agree, whether it applies to christians who didn't believe the trinity, & were labelled heretics, or unbelievers who didn't believe the seeming incongruity & were put off.
Suzana
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Jill
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Post by Jill » Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:08 pm

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Last edited by Jill on Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Homer
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Re: God and His Son

Post by Homer » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:33 am

Paidion,

I do believe you are in error, though I probably did not explain myself very well.

You wrote:
Homer to Darin wrote:
If I understand you, your position is the same as that which I believe to be the best explanation: not three persons but one God as three simultaneous persona?

This is a position known as "Oneness" or "modalism" (in its simultaneous form), or in the early centuries: "Sabellianism". This belief predated Trinitarianism, and is currently held by the United Pentecostal Church and by the Apostolic Church.

Many people who think they are Trinitarians actually hold the Oneness position.
Persona was the word in Latin chosen by Tertullian in the 2nd century to describe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That is why in traditional western theology it is said that that God is “three persons and one substance (or essence).” This is naturally regarded as polytheism by other monotheistic religions like Judaism and Islam. And I have a difficulty with it. It is incomprehensible when I look at Webster's definition of "person". In our modern thought, "persons" are individuals. It helps to recognize that the term “person” in the ancient world meant something somewhat different than it does to us. We tend to think of a person as a free, independent consciousness with his or her own will. If that’s the case, then we really do have three gods. Theologian Karl Barth proposed the term “mode of being” instead of “person,” but this way of phrasing things is a little too close to the old modalist heresy, which, interestingly, Tertullion was arguing against when he used "persona". In either case, the “persons” of the Trinity are distinct in role, but always work together and never apart. They share a single will and single essence, but are in relation to one another. The image the Eastern Church uses to describe this relationship–perichoresis, is the illustration we have probably all heard of the sun, in its manifestations, as an attempted anaolgy. The analogy is an ancient one; it was also used by Tertullian. And he followed the word persona with trinitas, which was a term he also coined. It was a new word; it is said that no other Latin writer had used it before.

As I have said before, we can not go very far in this matter without going into speculation. I am comfortable with "persona", as I understand it, and I think "three persons" in the modern sense of the words is too close to polytheism for comfort. Words do have a definate meaning and if we insist on non-biblical formulas as required for faith in Christ I believe we lay a burden on people that our Lord did not intend they should have to bear.

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Suzana
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Re: God and His Son

Post by Suzana » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:26 am

Homer wrote:...In either case, the “persons” of the Trinity are distinct in role, but always work together and never apart. They share a single will and single essence, but are in relation to one another.
In that case, either that view is not quite correct, or perhaps it's a reality somehow differentiated while Jesus was in his human body on earth? A part of emptying Himself of His divine attributes? (I don't know, I'm asking).
It seems clear that Jesus had His own will here, even though He chose to submit to His Father's instead.

Matthew 26:39 (KJV) And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

John 5:30 (KJV) I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Suzana
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steve
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Re: God and His Son

Post by steve » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:28 am

Homer wrote:
As I have said before, we can not go very far in this matter without going into speculation...Words do have a definite meaning and if we insist on non-biblical formulas as required for faith in Christ I believe we lay a burden on people that our Lord did not intend they should have to bear.
Amen to that!

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