Nature of the Atonement

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Paidion
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Re: Nature of the Atonement

Post by Paidion » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:11 pm

Homer wrote:If the purpose of Christ's atonement was to empower us so that we would no longer sin, according to your proof text, it would appear that the atonement was a great failure, otherwise Christians would never sin. Can you cite even one case where, in any person, sin has been done away with completely?
No, I can't cite such a case. But Christ's death and resurrection on our behalf was not a failure because salvation from sin of each individual is a process, not a completed fact. If we have repented and been baptized, and then walk the narrow path that leads to life and stay on it, we will draw closer and closer to the goal or completion in righteousness. If we are on that path, God will not hold our former sins against us. When Christ comes, He will put the finishing touches on those who walked that path, and they will be perfect (that is, complete). Thus Christ will have accomplished His goal of doing away with sin — the purpose of His magnificent sacrifice on our behalf!
I think the imputed righteousness model is better;


Okay. But does God think so? If we are not actually righteous, but only counted righteous in God's eyes, what is that to Him? He wanted REAL righteousness from the beginning. He told Cain that he would be accepted if he DID WELL. "If you do not do well," God said, "Sin is couching at your door, but you must master it." That is what God wanted from the beginning, and He hasn't changed His mind!
His atonement is 100% successful for those who trust in Him, just as those who looked upon the serpent Moses lifted up.
Do you call imputed righteousness a success? God wants us to actually be righteous. How would He be satisfied with merely counting us righteous? That sounds as if He would be merely kidding Himself and not seeing the reality of our wrongdoing. If that's all the death of Christ accomplished, would that not be a dismal failure in dealing with sin>
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Nature of the Atonement

Post by Homer » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:41 pm

If we are on that path, God will not hold our former sins against us. When Christ comes, He will put the finishing touches on those who walked that path, and they will be perfect (that is, complete).
I also believe this. You seem to believe that those of us who trust in Christ for our justification will somehow not live for God as those do who believe they must earn their justification by their own efforts, aided by the Spirit. I am probably misunderstanding your position, and I respect and agree with your insistence on living right, as Jesus would have us live. However, apart from grace, and that is what imputed righteousness is, it seems your own righteousness is all you have. And how can you ever be assured that is enough? Certainly not by "doing your best" - no one but Jesus has done their best.

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Paidion
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Re: Nature of the Atonement

Post by Paidion » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:51 am

Homer wrote:I also believe this. You seem to believe that those of us who trust in Christ for our justification will somehow not live for God as those do who believe they must earn their justification by their own efforts, aided by the Spirit. I am probably misunderstanding your position, and I respect and agree with your insistence on living right, as Jesus would have us live. However, apart from grace, and that is what imputed righteousness is, it seems your own righteousness is all you have. And how can you ever be assured that is enough? Certainly not by "doing your best" - no one but Jesus has done their best.
Ahhh. Now I understand better where you are coming from. But I want to assure you that I don't believe that anyone "earns" salvation in any sense. I think our difference in understanding arises, at least partially, from different concepts of "grace". I suspect that you think of the grace of God as His "the unmerited favour", a definition we have all learned from our association with evangelicals and fundamentalists. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with that definition, but I am saying that it is insufficient in itself. We may appreciate the fuller depiction of grace of which Paul writes in Titus 2:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and pious lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. Titus 2:11-15

We see from this passage that grace is not only God's unmerited favour, but is an enablement, a means of training us to live righteously. In this passage, the reason for Christ's death is given as 1) to redeem us from all lawlessness and 2) to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

This same Paul who supposedly teaches "imputed righteousness" in the book of Romans doesn't mention it at all, with respect to grace and righteousness, in this passage. This leads me to suspect that his teaching in Romans has been misunderstood. For example, in most translations we read that Abraham's faith was counted (or imputed) to him for righteousness. Most of us think this means that Abraham's faith was counted to him instead of righteousness. No doubt this understanding arises from our background of having been taught the Latin concept of the atonement, that the purpose of the sacrifice of Christ as a human to God was to appease Him (For God, because of His holiness requires human sacrifice in order to make forgiveness possible: "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins"). Thus Jesus paid for our sins by being punished in our place (penal substitution). But actually, the Greek indicates that that Abraham's faith was counted to him into righteousness, that is with righteousness as a GOAL. Reading it this way gives us a quite different understanding of Paul's words. It is also the case that though the word translated as "justify" sometimes means "shown to be righteous", it can also mean "made righteous".

Here is my attempt to faithfully translate the passage from which the "imputed righteousness" doctrine is primarily derived:of

[Abraham] did not waver in unbelief against the promise of God, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, fully convinced that He was able to do that which He promised. And that is why it was counted to him into righteousness (with righteousness as the goal). Now it was written, not only for him, but also for us, to whom it is about to be counted, to the ones trusting in the one who was raised from the dead, Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for the sake of our sins and was raised for the sake of our righteousification. Romans 4:20-24

Okay, so I coined the word "righteousification".

As I see it, the whole idea of the passage is that Abraham's faith was counted to him as the means toward the ultimate goal of righteousness. So it is with us. Through faith we can appopriate the enabling grace of God so that we will move in the direction of righteousness. For He who began a good work in us will "complete it until the day of Jesus Christ", that is will work on completing it until that day when it will actually have been completed. For Jesus died for the sake of dealing with our sins, not our past sins, but our present live sins. He was raised so that we might become righteous persons. And that goal will ultimately be realized. If we think this is impossible, then it is unlikely that we will even set out on the narrow path which leads to life.

We cannot become righteous through self-effort. Such attempts have proven futile. Nor will God thrust righteousness upon us unilaterally. It is necessary for us to coöperate with the enabling grace of God which has been made possible through the magnificent sacrifice of Christ on our behalf.

Working together with Him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. 2Corinthians 6:1
Paidion

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dseusy
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Re: Nature of the Atonement

Post by dseusy » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:48 pm

Paidion,

Could "into righteousness" mean into righteousness in the sense that once you enter it you are completely righteous?

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Re: Nature of the Atonement

Post by Paidion » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:54 pm

dseucy wrote:Could "into righteousness" mean into righteousness in the sense that once you enter it you are completely righteous?
I think that's exactly the case. However, this doesn't seem to happen in this life. I think that in this life true disciples of Christ are moving toward that goal. Then Christ Himself completes the process at His coming.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: Nature of the Atonement

Post by dseusy » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:37 pm

Paidion,

He didn't make us righteous "once for all" already, by grace, through faith?

"By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:10

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit" 1 Peter 3:18

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Hebrews 10:14

"Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, 'THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.'" Galatians 3:11

"But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Galatians 3:22-27

"even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction" Romans 3:22

"For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Romans 5:10

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Re: Nature of the Atonement

Post by RICHinCHRIST » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:09 pm

Paidion wrote:My position is not some offbase heresy. It is the ancient position of the whole Christian Church. Whereas the Western branch of the Catholic Church (Roman Catholicism, as well as Protestantism which sprang from it) has espoused the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (which in my opinion is heresy), the Eastern branch, which became the Orthodox Church in 1054 A.D., have never held this view.

You can listen to and watch a video on the topic by Hany Mina Mikhail, a teacher in the Christian Coptic Orthodox Church. This is Video 1 of 12. You can watch all 12 videos at this site:

Divine Justice by Hany Mina Mikhail
Thank you for sharing this, Paidion. I watched all 12 videos of Mr. Mikhail's arguments and I must say that I find them very persuasive. I'm going to continue to think about the ramifications of the penal substitution view on the portrayal of God's character. I also want to re-listen to many of his quotes of the Church Fathers which were interesting and edifying. It seems he holds to the eternal torment view by his continual mentioning of "eternal, spiritual death". I found it interesting that he sees Gehenna as created by man's rebellion, not as a place of punishment created by God. His description of anthropomorphic language in the Bible made a lot of sense too. Much of what he said gives me some insight into what Rob Bell said in his book about hell being "here and now" and I can see that Bell has studied up on the Eastern view of salvation and redemption. I want to continue to search the Scriptures on this and re-listen to this video series.

I also checked out, per your request, George MacDonald's unspoken sermon "Justice". I found many of his arguments quite brilliant, although I didn't agree with all of them. I can see why he held to the universal reconciliation view due to his understanding of God's justice. I don't agree with him completely, but I am definitely more sympathetic towards his view now.

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Re: Nature of the Atonement

Post by dseusy » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:14 am

Paidion,

I forgot one:

"See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." 1 John 3:1-3

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Re: Nature of the Atonement

Post by Paidion » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:27 pm

Thanks Rich. I am glad you were blessed by Hany's video messages. You are right. Hany does seem to hold to the eternal-conscious-torment view, though how he could think such a hell was "created" by man's rebellion is beyond my understanding.

I am also happy that you have come to appeciate George MacDonald's writings, at least to some degree. My thinking in many areas is identical, or at least close, to that of MacDonald. It is not that his teaching have shaped my thinking, but that when I discovered him, I realized here is a man who came to similar conclusions as those to which I came. Then I began to read him more, and realized that he had delved deeper into these matters than I.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: Nature of the Atonement

Post by Paidion » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:52 pm

dseusy wrote:He didn't make us righteous "once for all" already, by grace, through faith?
No. We are not yet complete in righteousness. I am talking about genuine practical righteousness, not a "righteousness" which has been thrust upon as a garment, so that when God looks at us He does not see our sin, but Christ's righteousness. That's not the kind of "righteousness" which God requires of us. He wants the real thing.
"By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:10
Yes, we have been sanctified, which means "set apart" from the world that we might live for Christ.
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit" 1 Peter 3:18
Yes? You quoted this for what purpose?
"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Hebrews 10:14
Taken in isolation, this passage could be interpreted as you seem to do. I think the writer was trying to emphasize that, unlike the Hebrew animal sacrifices, Jesus needed to be sacrificed only once. The passage cannot mean that those who are sanctified have been perfected for all time in the sense that they have arrived, and need no further growth. Rather, the sacrifice of Christ doesn't work for only a year, and then has to be done all over again. It was good for all time! For wasn't the apostle Paul sanctified? Yet he wrote:

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-- that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Philppians 3:7-14/color]

So Paul said at the time, that he was NOT perfect, but pressed on to make perfection his own. He would "press toward the goal". Salvation from sin is a process. We need to continue on the narrow path which leads to righteousness.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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