The Trinity and Light

[dizerner]

Although the Name Yahweh was replaced with Lord, Yahweh is also called "Lord" even without the replacement. "Lord" was a specific title of Yahweh, just as it is of Jesus, not just a substitute for his name. We can clearly see this many times in the OT if we use a translation like the New Jerusalem Bible or Rotherham's that uses the name Yahweh in the text.

2 To Yahweh I say, 'You are my Lord, my happiness is in none
3 of the sacred spirits of the earth. (Psa 16:2-3 NJB)

14 He said, 'These are the two anointed ones in attendance on the Lord of the whole world. This is the word of Yahweh with regard to Zerubbabel, 'Not by might and not by power, but by my spirit' -- says Yahweh Sabaoth. (Zec 4:14 NJB)

have joined their esteemed brothers in a solemn oath to follow the law of God given through Moses, servant of God, and to observe and practise all the commandments of Yahweh our Lord, with his rules and his statutes. (Neh 10:30 NJB)

Other translations will say the "LORD our Lord."

7 Silence before Lord Yahweh, for the Day of Yahweh is near! Yahweh has prepared a sacrifice, he has consecrated his guests (Zep 1:7 NJB)

"Lord Yahweh" is a title used 298 times in the Old Testament. Now this Hebrew word Lord (adonai) corresponds exactly to the Greek word Lord (kurios).

Again we have it clearly said, unequivocally!

yet for us there is only one God, the Father..., and one Lord, Jesus Christ

[TheEditor]

Try this on for size Dizerner;

Try putting a non-trinitarian cap on for one moment. Take the other side, just as a mental exercise. Now, reread your last post. Do you have any logical trouble with it? Or does it make perfect sense?

Regards, Brenden.

[dizerner]

As a non-Trinitarian I would have massive problems with this text. If I do not read it as synonymous parallelism, I am forced to the conclusion that God is not Lord, only Jesus is, and a single God and a single Lord are two distinct things, which was never taught in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Paul starts:
3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him

Alright! I'm on board here, everything is good, as a non-Trinitarian, this is where I have to stop reading. The only subject so far is one God versus many gods and lords. Yet there's a problem with my position: the text does not stop.

6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him [FULL STOP, NOTHING CAN BE ADDED]

AND ONE LORD... Jesus Christ...

Under any conceivable logic, Paul is going to have to say there are two Lords. Paul you just said "there is no other God but one." Yahweh is called Lord in the Hebrew Bible over 400 times, yet there is one Lord. Yahweh's religious name, as also known by Paul, was read as "Lord" in synagogues. I submit to you that only Trinitarian logic can make sense of this.

7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge

You're telling me, Paul. You're telling me.

And it seems John would agree:

41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

Isaiah:
1 In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord (Adonai!) [For us there is but one Lord!] seated on a high and lofty throne; his train filled the sanctuary.
2 Above him stood seraphs, each one with six wings: two to cover its face, two to cover its feet and two for flying;
3 and they were shouting these words to each other: Holy, holy, holy is Yahweh Sabaoth. His glory fills the whole earth. (Isa 6:1-3 NJB)

God bless!

[TheEditor]

Is Yahweh or Jehovah uniquely God the Father, and is Jesus uniquely God the Son?

Regards, Brenden.

[jriccitelli]

Is God a literal father Brenden? No God is not, that should be obvious. Your trying to keep God in a box with a anthropomorphic term like father. God is an invisible being who can reach out at least 150 billion light years in diameter, simultaneously, create galaxies and stars at will, are you sure your concept of God isn't a little restrictive. We know Jesus is also the Creator, how far can Jesus reach?

[TheEditor]

You either didn't understand the question (doubtful), or you are trying to anticipate my response to any answer (possible) and are preemptively not answering me by accusing me of placing to much emphasis on the term "Father." Strange of you to do that since you place alot of emphasis on the word "Lord" and "God". I was merely asking if the position of "Father" is uniquely the province of Jehovah. Everything needn't be a debate, JR.

Regards, Brenden.

[Homer]

4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him

In the passage quoted by dizerner Paul says there is but one deity (theos) yet John informs us Jesus is deity (theos). How does the non-Trinitarian explain this?

[TheEditor]

Hi Homer,

I can't speak for everyone, but I would always look at the two separate uses of "deity" as distinct uses; One would be describing "nature" and one would be describing "identity". Such as "Homer is man" versus "Homer is THE man." At least that's how I would have tackled it.

Regards, Brenden.

[jriccitelli]

That is the problem, if scripture said: "... yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord Homer, through whom all things came and through whom we live" Either Homer is just a man, or Homer is The deity. Otherwise Homer is a false deity, 'there is no other' option.

"... and are preemptively not answering me by accusing me of placing to much emphasis on the term "Father." Strange of you to do that since you place alot of emphasis on the word "Lord" and "God" (Brenden)

Strange because you are placing alot of emphasis on the word Father, and scripture speaks of as Only One Father of us all, yet from your reasoning about Lord you would argue there is not One Lord, as we keep saying, but many lords as you keep saying:

'Aren't we making a bit much of the terms "Lord" and "God" in the OT? As I recall, the words "Lord" and "God" are often euphemistically shoved into the OT text in lieu of "YHWH". Abraham was "Lord" to Sarah....as the young people say, "Just sayin'"... (Brenden Trinity, July 2 2014)
'... If an ancient Near East woman such as Sarah "worshipped" Abraham and it meant in her heart an homage that belonged only to God, then it is clearly different than the kind of "worship" Sarah gave Abraham (even calling him "Lord" in her heart) (Brenden, Trinity thread, Jan 30 2015)

So why with Father are you now convinced there is only One father, when scripture speaks of many fathers, how do you know which father scripture is talking about, yet you don't much care or know which lord scripture is talking about, strange.

We are putting emphasis on how many Lords Gods and Fathers we serve and worship. You do not seem to be bothered that you serve more than One, or serve a creature that is not God.

Is Yahweh or Jehovah uniquely God the Father, and is Jesus uniquely God the Son?

In another thread I said that The Father is a 'term that defines' God, as 'our origin' as Creator, substance and life, etc. the term Father is unique in the sense of God being our only origin, just as Creator is a unique term, and we have only One creator: God. Like Son, the Father must be an anthropomorphic term because there is no mother God. Just as the name Jesus means Yahweh is Salvation, yet Jesus is unique, Jesus is our salvation, God is our salvation... and The Lord is my salvation.

[Jose]

That is the problem, if scripture said: "... yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord Homer, through whom all things came and through whom we live" Either Homer is just a man, or Homer is The deity. Otherwise Homer is a false deity, 'there is no other' option.

Following JR's logic, if Homer is THE Deity then Homer IS the Father. Therefore, if Jesus is THE Deity, then Jesus IS the Father. (To my knowledge this is something only Oneness Christians believe). Since Jesus is not the Father, he is not THE Deity. There are other options, it just depends on whether one wishes to acknowledge them or not.