Nothing in the book of Isaiah, or anywhere in the Old Testament, would imply that the problems people were having were ‘caused’ by poor physical health.
The healing of diseases were the physical ‘sign’ of God beginning to fulfill and unveil the Messiah, the Atonement for sin and the promise made to Abraham, that God Himself would provide a Lamb.
The focus generated by the Word of faith teaching makes poor health and disease ‘the problem', puts the ‘blame’ on the devil, and makes healing the ‘focus’ and ‘fulfillment’ of having ‘faith’, when 'biblically' our health is really a ‘symptom’ and ‘symbolic' of our real problem. The biblical focus of ‘the problem’ is our sin, our heart.
After reading the Old Testament, you cannot conclude that the purpose of the atonement was to heal physical disease, it was God (Jesus) who gave them the plague and the disease, to get their attention, they were afflicted in hope that they would ‘stop’ sinning.
The whole purpose was to affect a change of heart in us, a revealing that He would suffer for us, to demonstrate His love for us. His love should be enough to persuade us to stop sinning, so if we stop sinning there is no reason for Him to chastise us.
Disease is symbolic of their real disease ‘SIN’, and healing is symbolic of what God can do for their sin. Healing is a physical a demonstration of what God could do in the invisible sense, that is ‘Forgive’ sin, it demonstrated the authority and truth of the message, but it is not the message, physical healing is not the Gospel.
Physical healing is not even of secondary, or third importance, but it is made the main focus of ‘the Faith movement’ and unfortunately millions of followers.
Healing with the Atonement
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jriccitelli
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Re: Healing with the Atonement
Hey JR--
I appreciate your POV and certainly understand it. I am not "sold" on the teachings of the WOF movement by any means, so I hope we are not talking past each other.
Let me ask you this--
Why did Jesus heal the sick, or cast out demons?
Why did Peter and John heal the lame man?
Why did Paul restore Eutychus back to life?
TK
I appreciate your POV and certainly understand it. I am not "sold" on the teachings of the WOF movement by any means, so I hope we are not talking past each other.
Let me ask you this--
Why did Jesus heal the sick, or cast out demons?
Why did Peter and John heal the lame man?
Why did Paul restore Eutychus back to life?
TK
Re: Healing with the Atonement
Disease is symbolic of their real disease ‘SIN’, and healing is symbolic of what God can do for their sin. Healing is a physical a demonstration of what God could do in the invisible sense, that is ‘Forgive’ sin, it demonstrated the authority and truth of the message, but it is not the message, physical healing is not the Gospel.
Physical healing is not even of secondary, or third importance, but it is made the main focus of ‘the Faith movement’ and unfortunately millions of followers.
jriccitelli
JR,
I see by you underlining a lot this is an important issue to you so i'm not responding to convince you, just share my perspective and if you think i'm all wet that's fine.
To me Mark 11.23 is clear , plus other verses TK quoted, so whether or not healing is in the atonement does'nt matter. Jesus made a simple straightforward statement about what we can do,say and believe and we can cast the mountain into the sea. Plus he gave a qualification which was to get rid of any unforgiveness we have, therefore since he gave one qualification he could have given others. To me the mountain is symbolic of anything keeping us from following him including disease.
I agree that God not only allowed disease but i would even say God sent Satan into the garden knowing what would happen. God could have restrained Satan, so God either allowed the fall or even caused it, but i think he wants us to overcome all the negative reprecussions from it through the power of Christ.
If you think physical healing is not important that's OK with me and i can't even disagree unless my kid was sick, then i might disagree. Anyway it's not a test of faith for me, to me it's just following instructions.
Physical healing is not even of secondary, or third importance, but it is made the main focus of ‘the Faith movement’ and unfortunately millions of followers.
jriccitelli
JR,
I see by you underlining a lot this is an important issue to you so i'm not responding to convince you, just share my perspective and if you think i'm all wet that's fine.
To me Mark 11.23 is clear , plus other verses TK quoted, so whether or not healing is in the atonement does'nt matter. Jesus made a simple straightforward statement about what we can do,say and believe and we can cast the mountain into the sea. Plus he gave a qualification which was to get rid of any unforgiveness we have, therefore since he gave one qualification he could have given others. To me the mountain is symbolic of anything keeping us from following him including disease.
I agree that God not only allowed disease but i would even say God sent Satan into the garden knowing what would happen. God could have restrained Satan, so God either allowed the fall or even caused it, but i think he wants us to overcome all the negative reprecussions from it through the power of Christ.
If you think physical healing is not important that's OK with me and i can't even disagree unless my kid was sick, then i might disagree. Anyway it's not a test of faith for me, to me it's just following instructions.
Re: Healing with the Atonement
Steve7150
Matthew 9:1-7 (NKJV)
1. So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. 2. Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”
3. And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!”
4. But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5. For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’? 6. But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 7. And he arose and departed to his house.
John 20:30-31 (NKJV)
30. And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31. but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
IMO jriccitelli is correct in his view. If healing from physical ills is in the atonement, I hope the atonement works more efficiently for sin than it does for illness. If it doesn't, we are in a heap of trouble.
What is there in the scriptures that makes your conclusion clear to you? It seems to me that Jesus' (and the apostles) miracles were not primarily about healing people but had a greater aim:To me Mark 11.23 is clear , plus other verses TK quoted, so whether or not healing is in the atonement does'nt matter. Jesus made a simple straightforward statement about what we can do,say and believe and we can cast the mountain into the sea. Plus he gave a qualification which was to get rid of any unforgiveness we have, therefore since he gave one qualification he could have given others. To me the mountain is symbolic of anything keeping us from following him including disease.
Matthew 9:1-7 (NKJV)
1. So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. 2. Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”
3. And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!”
4. But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5. For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’? 6. But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 7. And he arose and departed to his house.
John 20:30-31 (NKJV)
30. And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31. but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
IMO jriccitelli is correct in his view. If healing from physical ills is in the atonement, I hope the atonement works more efficiently for sin than it does for illness. If it doesn't, we are in a heap of trouble.
Re: Healing with the Atonement
Homer wrote:
TK
But again I ask-- why does one have to believe that physical healing is part of the atonement to conclude that sickness and disease is not a good thing and we should be praying against it?If healing from physical ills is in the atonement, I hope the atonement works more efficiently for sin than it does for illness. If it doesn't, we are in a heap of trouble.
TK
Re: Healing with the Atonement
IMO jriccitelli is correct in his view. If healing from physical ills is in the atonement, I hope the atonement works more efficiently for sin than it does for illness. If it doesn't, we are in a heap of trouble.Homer
Homer,
I think i previously said this is not a "healing in the atonement" issue to me, it's just following Jesus instructions in Mark 11.23. Yes i know that Jesus healed to demonstrate he was and is the Christ, but he is also the same yesterday,today and forever. Also he is the revealed will of God, so in Mark 11.23 he begins by saying "Have faith in God" and then goes on explaining to his disciples a method of praying. It's not the only method, but a method.
He also gave a couple of qualifications which were to release any unforgiveness and to "doubt not". You could answer that he only meant it for his disciples, but i don't take it that way.
Homer,
I think i previously said this is not a "healing in the atonement" issue to me, it's just following Jesus instructions in Mark 11.23. Yes i know that Jesus healed to demonstrate he was and is the Christ, but he is also the same yesterday,today and forever. Also he is the revealed will of God, so in Mark 11.23 he begins by saying "Have faith in God" and then goes on explaining to his disciples a method of praying. It's not the only method, but a method.
He also gave a couple of qualifications which were to release any unforgiveness and to "doubt not". You could answer that he only meant it for his disciples, but i don't take it that way.
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jriccitelli
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Re: Healing with the Atonement
Believe me I appreciate your view points, and for me Steve's radio show and Ministry is an Oasis in a very dry land. And this forum here makes me believe that some people actually care about Gods Word, and can talk about it. I really appreciate that. (There seems like so much biblical illiteracy in my neck of the woods)
(And I underline just so that I can 'summarize' what I'm trying to say)
I do have some very strong feelings about this topic, I am familiar with disease and death, and I am praying for those in need. Please believe I pray, and I do believe God hears and heals. My daughters name is Miracle.
My problem is with the 'Word of Faith teachers'. This verse in Isaiah 53 is one of their main proof texts, so it is interesting to examine this since it is probably the only substantial Old Testament text that comes close to applying.
As a fan of Steves ministry, and because you take scripture seriously also, you might understand my concern (Heartache) over friends and people who fall for the 'Word of faith' teaching and its other doctrines.
My experience of having gone to such a Church for awhile was that it stunts the growth of believers, and dummydowns the meaning of the texts. If you attend this Church all you hear over and over is the same message, week after week the message is repeated, healing, claiming you’re healing, believing for your healing. When other bible passages or stories are brought up it always ends back at healing. The consideration of other biblical truths and doctrines seem to disappear from lack of use, or familiarity. My friends were so set on some experience of God about to take place it seemed ridiculous to consider talking about anything that wasn't a sign, wonder or a movement. (I went because I liked the music)
There is so much depth and width to Gods Word, yet Faith teachers seem to have about five verses in they’re pockets and that’s it. You can hear Charles Capps, and they used to broadcast Kenneth Haggin here also, every single show almost without fail seemed to be on (John 14:14, 15:16, Mark 11:23, Matt 9:29) one of these four verses, everyday! I was getting Word of Faith magazine in the mail, every issue healing, miracles, healing.
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, holiness, believe me 'claiming your healing' did not seem to effect some of the lifestyles I observed outside the church.
Is it more important to have someone healed than it is to have someone understand, believe, repent and commit themselves to God?
Healing is the focus of these teachers, and the focus of the followers.
Jesus healed hundreds of people in and around Jerusalem (This was done as a sign, a demonstration of Gods passion, and to proclaim the coming of their Messiah) yet where were these people when they were yelling crucify Him, when so many turned their backs to Him. I think the point is the same as in the Old Testament, no matter what God did for them; prosper them, heal them, chastise them, they still go right back to sinning. The only thing that really has any effect is a new heart.
(And I underline just so that I can 'summarize' what I'm trying to say)
I do have some very strong feelings about this topic, I am familiar with disease and death, and I am praying for those in need. Please believe I pray, and I do believe God hears and heals. My daughters name is Miracle.
My problem is with the 'Word of Faith teachers'. This verse in Isaiah 53 is one of their main proof texts, so it is interesting to examine this since it is probably the only substantial Old Testament text that comes close to applying.
As a fan of Steves ministry, and because you take scripture seriously also, you might understand my concern (Heartache) over friends and people who fall for the 'Word of faith' teaching and its other doctrines.
My experience of having gone to such a Church for awhile was that it stunts the growth of believers, and dummydowns the meaning of the texts. If you attend this Church all you hear over and over is the same message, week after week the message is repeated, healing, claiming you’re healing, believing for your healing. When other bible passages or stories are brought up it always ends back at healing. The consideration of other biblical truths and doctrines seem to disappear from lack of use, or familiarity. My friends were so set on some experience of God about to take place it seemed ridiculous to consider talking about anything that wasn't a sign, wonder or a movement. (I went because I liked the music)
There is so much depth and width to Gods Word, yet Faith teachers seem to have about five verses in they’re pockets and that’s it. You can hear Charles Capps, and they used to broadcast Kenneth Haggin here also, every single show almost without fail seemed to be on (John 14:14, 15:16, Mark 11:23, Matt 9:29) one of these four verses, everyday! I was getting Word of Faith magazine in the mail, every issue healing, miracles, healing.
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, holiness, believe me 'claiming your healing' did not seem to effect some of the lifestyles I observed outside the church.
Is it more important to have someone healed than it is to have someone understand, believe, repent and commit themselves to God?
Healing is the focus of these teachers, and the focus of the followers.
Jesus healed hundreds of people in and around Jerusalem (This was done as a sign, a demonstration of Gods passion, and to proclaim the coming of their Messiah) yet where were these people when they were yelling crucify Him, when so many turned their backs to Him. I think the point is the same as in the Old Testament, no matter what God did for them; prosper them, heal them, chastise them, they still go right back to sinning. The only thing that really has any effect is a new heart.
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jriccitelli
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Re: Healing with the Atonement
I believe Mark 11:23 is a good example of this, I don't disagree with you on the interpretation, but I think alot 'more' can be gleaned from this verse, such as it might also be about Jerusalem and the Church, but that is a different subject.
The message I read in the Bible is that we are to die to self, cut off the flesh, put to death the deeds of the flesh, crucify the flesh, pick up our cross, he who loves his life will lose it, do not be anxious for your life, or the things of this world, store up for yourselves treasure in heaven, etc.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God... And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:18-19)
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. (1Cor 15:35-55)
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, (Hebrews 11:39)
I think we are to consider this world passing away, I think we are to ask for our daily bread, pray His will be done, focus on our future renewal, lead others to 'that' hope, and not to let this passing body be the focus of our ministry. I think the WOF teaching leads believers off the path to focus on what is 'passing away' rather than what will last forever.
The message I read in the Bible is that we are to die to self, cut off the flesh, put to death the deeds of the flesh, crucify the flesh, pick up our cross, he who loves his life will lose it, do not be anxious for your life, or the things of this world, store up for yourselves treasure in heaven, etc.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God... And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:18-19)
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. (1Cor 15:35-55)
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, (Hebrews 11:39)
I think we are to consider this world passing away, I think we are to ask for our daily bread, pray His will be done, focus on our future renewal, lead others to 'that' hope, and not to let this passing body be the focus of our ministry. I think the WOF teaching leads believers off the path to focus on what is 'passing away' rather than what will last forever.
Re: Healing with the Atonement
Good posts jriccitelli!
I believe very much in prayer for the sick; sick because of disease and sick because of sin. I pray virtually every day for a number of them. We are to make our requests and petitions to the Father, but it seems to be a very different thing than "commanding" a disease to leave a person. I believe all healing is from God, and if He hasn't granted us authority, we are usurping His.
The terrible consequence of some of this teaching is that a poor sick person who doesn't get healed is made to feel even worse because they are taught their lack of faith is the reason they are not healed, and that is an unloving, disgusting thing.
I believe very much in prayer for the sick; sick because of disease and sick because of sin. I pray virtually every day for a number of them. We are to make our requests and petitions to the Father, but it seems to be a very different thing than "commanding" a disease to leave a person. I believe all healing is from God, and if He hasn't granted us authority, we are usurping His.
The terrible consequence of some of this teaching is that a poor sick person who doesn't get healed is made to feel even worse because they are taught their lack of faith is the reason they are not healed, and that is an unloving, disgusting thing.
Re: Healing with the Atonement
I believe Mark 11:23 is a good example of this, I don't disagree with you on the interpretation, but I think alot 'more' can be gleaned from this verse, such as it might also be about Jerusalem and the Church, but that is a different subject.
Hi JR,
Yes i agree it could be an allusion to it but i think Jesus primarily was just speaking to Peter and the other disciples about faith.
To your point Homer i would never blame anyone for lack of healing as neither you nor i know everything about God's will, but on the other hand Jesus did blame people for their lack of healing, but of course he could read the heart.
Hi JR,
Yes i agree it could be an allusion to it but i think Jesus primarily was just speaking to Peter and the other disciples about faith.
To your point Homer i would never blame anyone for lack of healing as neither you nor i know everything about God's will, but on the other hand Jesus did blame people for their lack of healing, but of course he could read the heart.