Apollos wrote:Paidion, you have very little formal training in Greek - two years of NT Greek [the simplest and easiest out there] if I remember right, and that probably in an unaccredited institution where two semesters equals one semester or less in a rigorous accredited course in a public institution. You are probably not even in a situation where you can even read Greek literature - certainly not outside of the NT, and possibly not even the NT without aids. And yet you are prone to making these sweeping statements about what words can and can't mean.
You seem to be making a lot of presumptions. Is that the way you arrive at your conclusions? Would you say that St. John’s College, a part of the University of Manitoba, is unaccredited? Beyond this I am not going to correct your several false presumptions. I have no need to defend or justify myself in order to counteract what you think of me.
This seems endemic in evangelicalism - everyone wants to be an expert, and as they say, a little learning is a dangerous thing.
How does a person ever come to the point of possessing "a lot of learning", without going through the danger phase? Are you also presuming also that I’m an evangelical, and therefore wish to be an expert? That I'm stuck in the "danger stage"?
I've had five years classroom time in Greek, sitting in classes with PhD classicists. That's five years of often unspeakable stress and exertion. It's taught me one thing at least - to be very cautious about saying 'the Greek means this and the Greek means that', especially based upon a study of Strongs and looking up references on E-Sword.
Does it matter whether you’ve had 50 years of Greek, or that I’ve had only 50 hours? Most members of this forum, including myself, are seeking truth and reality. That is why we share our thoughts as well as what we have learned. We are not here to assassinate the character of those with whom we disagree.
I don't want to keep writing replies like this, but I also think that your irresponsible use of Greek could lead people astray on here who might think that you are qualified to make these assertions. I'm sorry, I don't want to talk like this, and I've tried being more sensitive in the past, but what can I do? Just sit back and let you make statements and oversimplifications which might mislead those who don't know any better? Allow you to argue discussions with statements that those on here have no way of assessing?
Paidion, there is another word for 'merciful' in Greek [ἐλεέω].
“Merciful” is an adjective; “ἐλεέω” is a verb. It is “ἐλεημων”, the adjectival form of the verb, which means “merciful”. Oh, oh. Here I go again making these “sweeping assertions”, a person with only two years of formal Greek, correcting a man with five years of Greek --- five years of stress and exertion. Actually, my guess is that you didn’t make a mistake in Greek grammar. I think you made a typo, intending to have said, “There is another word for ‘be merciful’ in Greek [ἐλεέω].”
This is not it. This is 'be propitious to me', not the word for 'be merciful'. Be 'merciful' is an interpretation on the part of the translators, as any good word study tool like Vincent will tell you.
So why do the translators “interpret” the word as “merciful”. You have asserted above that “ἱλασκομαι” is not the word for “be merciful”. Are you saying that the translators of the following versions have incorrectly translated this word in Luke 18:13? They have only offered an interpretation?
ASV, Murdoch, NASB, NIV, NKJV, Philips, RSV, NRSV, RWebster, AV, BBE, Douay, ERV, ESV, KJ21, LO
Why wouldn’t they have translated the word correctly? If not, can we trust versions which are not translations but merely interpretations? Do you prefer Rotherham, who translated the tax collector’s prayer as “God be propitiated unto me, a sinner”? Or how about the Concordant Version: “God make a propitiatory shelter for me, a sinner”?
The 16 translations above, as well as others, also translate “ἱλαστηριον” as "mercy seat" in Hebrews 9:5. Are they all interpreting again? Well, the Concordant is consistent anyway. They translate it as "propitiatory shelter" in that verse also.
This is 'be propitious to me', not the word for 'be merciful'.
If we consider the present meaning of “propitious”, is there any significant difference between the two? Wiktionary gives the following as its first and second meanings for “propitious”:
• Favorable; benevolent (e.g. propitious weather)
• (archaic) Favorably disposed towards someone.
“God be favorably disposed toward me, a sinner.” I have no problem with that translation. What I believe to be incorrect, is to use the word “ἱλαστηριον” in Romans 3:25, “ἱλασκομαι” in Hebrews 2:17, and “ἱλασμος” in I John 2:2 and 4:10, as carrying the idea that Jesus died in order to propitiate the Father in the sense of offering Himself as an appeasing sacrifice.
I don't think it's right for you to make statements that you are unqualified to make, in order to try to influence someone's view of truth.
Seems like another supposition. My intention is not to “influence someone’s view of truth”, but to help them consider the possibility that the NT writers may have sometimes meant something other than the current understanding of the English words assigned to the Greek by translators. After all, isn't that the reason we study Greek? To try to better understand what the writers were actually saying?
Ironically, you seem to agree with this, by your assertion that “be merciful” is merely an interpretation made by all those translators. Could the same be said concerning “propitious”, “eternal”, and perhaps a number of other English words?
