Dangerous Heresy

[TK]

Rich wrote:

I thought about his response and realized that he must have also had similar thoughts but didn't have a reason (from Scripture) to doubt the traditional view. I must ask: If every man or woman touched by the Spirit of God questions the idea of eternal torments, is it not possible that the Spirit of God is trying to reveal to us that He would not do such a thing?

As my view on this matter has been evolving, I have been asking the Lord to PLEASE reveal to me by strong checks in my spirit if I am thinking wrongly about Him, or if I am being led down a path that does not lead to truth, etc. As I have opened myself up to the possibility of UR i have not rec'd any such checks; quite the contrary my spirit seems to be lighter. It is as if I am relieved that I no longer feel constrained to believe the ET view which has been troubling me for quite a long time, even before I ever heard a cogent argument for UR.

I am pretty sure that in my circle of Christian friends, I am the only one who has seriously considered UR as a possibility. I would like to start "planting seeds" regarding the idea that ET is not the only viable option, but I would expect some resistance on this point. It is amazing how good people are willing to grasp so tightly onto an idea about God that is rather unflattering.

I think part of the problem is that people do not deal with the logical ramifications of the ET view. They go so far, but no further, saying something to the effect of "well I don't completely understand it but since God is perfectly just and loving it (ET) must be correct." That is something my mom would say. And they are quite resistant to seriously consider other views, thinking them either too liberal or heretical.

TK

[jriccitelli]

I was attracted to Steves teaching because it is a Sola Scriptura approach. I have felt that as we read the whole Bible over and over and over, we can let it sink in so that we are thinking its thoughts. So I have never been compelled to think (From scripture) that God punishes eternally (Demons and false prophets aside, Rev.20:10).
It seems so clear that God 'punishes fairly', and that God would be unjust 'not' to punish sin. Over a hundred verses teach us that God demands fairness in just judgments, weights, measures, and if He scolds those who do not judge fairly, then 'how could He then be unjust in judgment?' Another hundred verses clearly state God will judge man according to our deeds such as;
Ezekiel 7:1 ...'An end! The end is coming on the four corners of the land. 3 'Now the end is upon you, and I will send My anger against you; I will judge you according to your ways and bring all your abominations upon you.4 'For My eye will have no pity on you, nor will I spare you, but I will bring your ways upon you, and your abominations will be among you; then you will know that I am the LORD!' ...27 According to their conduct I will deal with them, and by their judgments I will judge them. And they will know that I am the LORD.'"
And there are 'only a few' verses that make punishment sound eternal (Such as Matt. 25:46) and of these it sure seems that it is 'the fire' that is eternal. I am sure the 'fire' speaks of Gods final judgement on sin and its 'smoke' will rise up for ever and ever (Not humans) as a memorial and reminder of Gods holiness and judgment on sin to those in the new creation. Mark 9 speaks of immortal worms that never die, and unquenchable 'fire'. What is the acronym for 'Just Judgement', I am all for JJ, then into the eternal fire that "is able to destroy both soul and body"
'If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him:20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him.21 'Thus the one who kills an animal shall make it good, but the one who kills a man shall be put to death.22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'" (Leviticus 24:19-22)
And in response to Universalism I will put my two cents on the next post... but why should I bother, we are 'all' flying off to live with God someday anyway, so why should I waste my time.

[jriccitelli]

Eternal life is not a right, God gave everyone on earth a life, they lived it and died. It was said in the Garden to our 'father' Adam, "the day you eat of it you will die". We had a life, what did we do with it? People seem to demand eternal life of God, yet I certainly cannot see why God would want mankind around eternally after observing our behavior here. I will not repeat anymore of what I wrote under the 'Those who never hear the Gospel' thread, but to further the thought; Is it unfair that some never recieve eternal life'? Was it unfair that you were born? Would you know what eternal life was if you never heard of it? If it is unfair to those who have never heard, then it is unfair to those who were never born. And then is it unfair then to those who never had a chance to be born (never fertilized), is it then unfair to those who were never even spawn'ed (Never consummated). Is it then unfair then that God never allowed every single sperm to germinate, is it then unfair that that every sperm that 'could' have been created 'was not' created?
This is endless romanticism, you could say that God is unjust in not sending every dog, cat and raccoon to heaven. Is it not unfair that a mouse never had a chance to believe and have eternal life? It isn't fair that every fish, amoeba, thistle and thornbush arent given a chance of eternal life. Scripture calls men beasts, worms and dust, we ought not to demand to much of Gods creative freewill.
I agree with TK, what if God said 'Muh ha ha', we are only lucky scripture (and nature) reveal a God who creates, destroys, and yet loves. I am not as cynical as I write, and I do believe God may recreate some of our pets in heaven, and I 'hope' my 'unsaved' dad will be with me there too, but these are only hopeful requests of God, not demands of God, God does 'have to' do anything, or owe me anything, God said if I believe I may have eternal life, now I need to tell others, If they will listen.

[steve7150]

Eternal life is not a right, God gave everyone on earth a life, they lived it and died. It was said in the Garden to our 'father' Adam, "the day you eat of it you will die". We had a life, what did we do with it? People seem to demand eternal life of God,







I agree with you friend that eternal life is not a right and also that God owes us nothing which includes eternal torment IMHO. I have no problem if eternal destruction is the fate of most but it is God's stated will that in the fullness of the ages every knee will bow, every tongue will confess, everything will be restored. everyone be saved , so i don't demand it, i just hope and pray like Jesus did, that God's will be done.

[mattrose]

I am pretty sure that in my circle of Christian friends, I am the only one who has seriously considered UR as a possibility. I would like to start "planting seeds" regarding the idea that ET is not the only viable option, but I would expect some resistance on this point. It is amazing how good people are willing to grasp so tightly onto an idea about God that is rather unflattering.
TK

I was a little nervous when I decided to teach the 3 views on a Sunday night over 3 weeks a few years back. I expected to face a ton of resistence. But to be honest, only 2-3 out of 25 responded negatively (they were noticably upset/disagreeing). The majority seemed to be glad to hear other possibilities. And there were even a couple that already held to other views who simply had never said as much.

I got a little more confident a year or so later and decided to do the same basic teaching at our district family camp. In a room of about 45 I received almost all positive reviews for bringing other possibilities to light. In fact, I don't remember anyone being upset that I had questioned ET and spoke of the other 2 as legitimate Evangelical considerations. I was pleasantly surprised.

Currently I am researching for my master's thesis on the subject. I am still a bit nervous about how it may be received, but less so than I would have been.

[TK]

matt wrote:

I was a little nervous when I decided to teach the 3 views on a Sunday night over 3 weeks a few years back. I expected to face a ton of resistence.

At the church I used to attend I regularly taught a mid-week class and I approached the Pastor about teaching alternative views of hell; he felt that this was a "graduate level" topic and refused. But I tried to sneak little things in here and there in the classes I did teach- ususally going through a book of the Bible.

One response I remember is that someone said something to the effect "it's not fair to those of us who forsake all and follow Christ that those who don't do so will reap the same destiny."

TK

[steve7150]

One response I remember is that someone said something to the effect "it's not fair to those of us who forsake all and follow Christ that those who don't do so will reap the same destiny."





I think Jesus said that the ones who forsake all will receive a reward a hundred fold, so i'm sure their reward will be many times greater, but will it be a hundred times greater if their relatives are tormented in hell? Is that the kind of mercy Jesus commanded us to have or can we just trust God to figure it out?

[TK]

I dont disagree with you, Steve-- i just wanted to point out how some people view UR-- actually a lot of people- that it's not "fair" to those who believe during this life.

TK

[steve7150]

I dont disagree with you, Steve-- i just wanted to point out how some people view UR-- actually a lot of people- that it's not "fair" to those who believe during this life.







Sorry TK , i was not really responding to you per se just to the idea that for the reward to be greater so does the punishment of the unbeliever.

[21centpilgrim]

We don't know everything that God might do, but we know we most resemble Him when we "love [our] enemies, bless those who curse [us], do good to those who hate [us], and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute [us], that you may be sons of your Father in heaven" (Matt.5:44-45). If that is the way to "be merciful, even as your Father in heaven is merciful," then this must be the way He treats His enemies, who curse Him, hate Him, spitefully use and persecute Him. Astonishing, isn't it?

I guess that is what is distinctive about our God, as opposed to all other gods. He is a just God, but He delights in showing mercy. It shouldn't surprise us, though, who have for decades enjoyed that mercy upon our own miserable, sinful souls.

Of course, this does not mean that universalism is correct, since annihilation might be regarded as an act of mercy upon those whose souls are irreparably bent in such a way that their continued existence could never be made suited to life in God's presence, but whom God could not bear to see tormented eternally.

It must be said that it is a great assumption to say that if God commands us to do something that is reflective of Him, then He must always act accordingly in all of His dealings. This is not true biblicaly.
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

Also, just because God does delight in showing mercy does not means that He always will or must, that would be mercy demanded and hence not mercy. The very concept of mercy presupposes a strict judgement that is rightly deserving, possibly even ET. And because scripture makes us aware the some will receive no mercy then we must bow ourselves to God's revelation of Himself, both His goodness and severity. 'It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.'