Paidion,
Thank you for your reply.
The speculative questions that you bring up are interesting, and delving into them could bring some fruitful insights. However, I think it would be better for us to stick with what has been positively revealed by God in the Scriptures.
In many places, the Scriptures reveal to us that everlasting punishment is given to the devil and his angels, as well as to those who do evil in this life (and fail to repent of this evil before death). Some of the clearest revelations of this everlasting punishment for the demons and wicked men include the following:
"He (Christ) shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels...And these shall go to everlasting punishment: but the just to everlasting life." (Matthew 25:41, 46)
"[Those who know not God and who obey not the Gospel of Christ] shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction..." (2 Thess. 1:7-9)
"The angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he has reserved under darkness in everlasting chains....As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighboring cities, in like manner....were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 1:6-8)
"The false prophet shall be tormented day and night, for ever and ever." (Revelation 20, 10)
So, we can see from the Scriptures that there is such a thing as everlasting punishment given to those who reject God's love and refuse to obey His law.
In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"
-
BrotherAlan
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:42 am
Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."
Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"
BrotherAlen,
Yes, it is rather plain. But it is also true that people generally believe only that which they want to believe. And we see all sorts of doctrines promoted with scant evidence to support them.
Yes, it is rather plain. But it is also true that people generally believe only that which they want to believe. And we see all sorts of doctrines promoted with scant evidence to support them.
Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"
So, we can see from the Scriptures that there is such a thing as everlasting punishment given to those who reject God's love and refuse to obey His law.
Not necessarily "scripture" but traditional bible translations which translate "aionios" as everlasting or eternal yet a strong case can be made that the correct translation is "pertaining to the age."
Not necessarily "scripture" but traditional bible translations which translate "aionios" as everlasting or eternal yet a strong case can be made that the correct translation is "pertaining to the age."
Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"
All right, let's do that. Here are some scriptures which indicate that all people will be reconciled to God. In my next post I'll comment on the ones you presented which supposedly teach everlasting punishment.BrotherAlan, you wrote:The speculative questions that you bring up are interesting, and delving into them could bring some fruitful insights. However, I think it would be better for us to stick with what has been positively revealed by God in the Scriptures.
John 12:32,32 … I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. He said this to show by what death he was to die.
When Jesus was lifted up on the cross, and died, did He draw all people to Himself? Over 2000 years has elapsed since that event. Has He drawn all people to Himself at any time in history? Then how will His word be fulfilled? Will it not be fulfilled when all have come under His feet? When all have submitted to His Lordship?
Colossians 1:19,20 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
The passage above seems to indicate that it is God’s purpose to reconcile all to Himself.
Ephesians 1:9,10 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the secret of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
So it seems that God’s plan for the eschaton (the fullness of time) is to unite with His entire creation. That is possible only if the entire creation comes under His rule. Is it not the final stage of the Kingdom of God that all creation be ruled by Him and give Him honour and worship?
Romans 5:18,19 So then as through one transgression condemnation resulted for all people, even so through one righteous act justification of life resulted for all people. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were constituted sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous.
After Adam sinned, his descendants (all people) inherited the sinful nature and thus their sinful actions resulted in condemnation. By Christ’s righteous act of dying on behalf of the whole world, grace was given to those who submit to Him to live righteously. Since all people will sooner or later be justified, this indicates that all will ultimately, of their own free will, submit to Christ.
Through Adam’s disobedience the many (not just “many”) were constituted sinners. Adam is contrasted with “the many” (everyone else). Similarily, though Christ’s obedience to the death, “the many”(again “everyone else”) will be constituted righteous.
Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him [Christ] and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I’ve heard it said, “Oh yes, every knee will bow all right --- when they are hit behind the knee with a two-by-four.” But that is not God’s way. His way is to win people to Himself, not force them. Their submission and confession of Jesus as Lord, to the glory of the Father, will come about by their own free will.
Even an earthly king will have far greater glory if his enemies willingly come under his reign than he would have if they were merely forced to submit.
I Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.
This verse states that the living God is the Saviour of all people. In what sense? Probably more than 99% of all people who have lived since Paul wrote this, have not known the Saviour. So it must be that they will all come to know Him in the future. Otherwise, how can He be the Saviour of all people?
In what sense is He the Saviour especially of those who believe? Those who believe (have entrusted themselves to Him) will not have to undergo that severe mercy (the purifying fires of Gehenna) in order to come to the place of repentance and deliverance from sin.
Revelation 5:12-13 And I heard every created being in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might into the ages of ages!”
In his vision, John hears every created thing in the universe praising God! Even those “under the earth” (presumably in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire). Surely this is not a forced praise, but a genuine praise.
Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all people to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
Some point out that in the scriptures, “all” is sometimes used figuratively. For example, in Matthew 8:34, it is stated that “all the city came out to meet Jesus”. In this statement, “all” seems to be used for emphasis to indicate that many people from the city came out. From this it is supposed that the passages which I have quoted may not literally refer to all people, but to many people. However, in Romans 11:32 above, there is parallel construction. If it is literally all people were consigned to disobedience, then it is literally all people upon whom He will have mercy.
Philippians 3:20,21 But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.
What could be clearer? By the same power Jesus has to change our earthly body to be like His, He also has the power to subject all to Himself. Some may argue that this will be forced. Perhaps Jesus will greatly influence many to submit, but they won’t be forced.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.
Perhaps Paul is saying that in Adam all die a spiritual death. The scriptures refer to those who are not in Christ as “dead”. But in Christ, all are made spiritually alive. Some may argue that this must be taken literally. It refers to the fact that all descendants of Adam will die a physical death, and that all of his descendants will also be resurrected, either in the resurrection of the righteous or the resurrection of the unrighteous.
However,according to the apostle Paul, not all the descendants of Adam will die a physical death!
I Corinthians 15:51-54 Lo! I tell you a secret: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"
Hi Paidion,
You wrote:
Here are some passages for your consideration, from the great many in scripture, where "all" is not literal:
Matthew 2:16
Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
It makes no sense to think Herod had the little girls killed.
Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Obviously Jesus here is only referring to those who are outside the church. "All men" would not include Christians!
Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
"All" here is used with an exception---the exception of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
But we know "all" does not include that which is outside His will.
Matthew 27:25
Then answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us, and on our children.
The disciples did not say "let Him be crucified", although the disciples DID walk away from the LORD, they did not say that He should be crucified.
Mark 1:5
And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
We are clearly informed elsewhere that the Pharisees refused John's baptism, and there were a lot of Pharisees.
Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
"All sins" does not include blaspheming the Holy Spirit, Jesus excepted that sin elsewhere.
Mark 5:20
And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all [men] did marvel.
Its probably safe to say "all" did not include those who were offended by Jesus.
Luke 2:1
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
"All" the world was obviously not taxed by Caesar. Caesar did not rule the entire world.
John 13:35
By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
You say 99% of people have never heard of Jesus. How will they "all" know who Jesus disciples are?
Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Attempting to apply this to "all" individuals does not make sense considering Hebrews 11:
Hebrews 11:4 "By faith Abel offered unto God..."
Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was translated...that he pleased God."
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham,..."
Hebrews 11:11 "Through faith also Sara..."
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Paul can not mean that there is nothing unlawful for him. He was under the "law of Christ".
1Corinthians 10:33
Even as I please all [men] in all [things], not seeking mine own profit, but the [profit] of many, that they may be saved.
Paul certainly did not please all men. Not the Pharisees and others who repeatedly persecuted and finally killed him.
Philippians 2:21
For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.
Paul certainly does not include Timothy or himself in "all". He is speaking of those not following Jesus.
2 Corinthians 3:2
Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
"All" can only refer to those who knew of them.
1Thessalonians 2:15
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
"All" is very obviously not talking about those in their own group.
2 Thessalonians 2:9
[Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
I would think "all power" would not include giving life and raising the dead.
I am sure a great number of other examples can be adduced but its bedtime.
You wrote:
It seems to me you have taken as a proof-text for Universalism a statement Paul was making about Jews and Gentiles, the "all" being a reference to the two classes of people, not individuals, which is clearly the context of Paul's statement in Romans 11.Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all people to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
Some point out that in the scriptures, “all” is sometimes used figuratively. For example, in Matthew 8:34, it is stated that “all the city came out to meet Jesus”. In this statement, “all” seems to be used for emphasis to indicate that many people from the city came out. From this it is supposed that the passages which I have quoted may not literally refer to all people, but to many people. However, in Romans 11:32 above, there is parallel construction. If it is literally all people were consigned to disobedience, then it is literally all people upon whom He will have mercy.
Here are some passages for your consideration, from the great many in scripture, where "all" is not literal:
Matthew 2:16
Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
It makes no sense to think Herod had the little girls killed.
Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Obviously Jesus here is only referring to those who are outside the church. "All men" would not include Christians!
Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
"All" here is used with an exception---the exception of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
But we know "all" does not include that which is outside His will.
Matthew 27:25
Then answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us, and on our children.
The disciples did not say "let Him be crucified", although the disciples DID walk away from the LORD, they did not say that He should be crucified.
Mark 1:5
And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
We are clearly informed elsewhere that the Pharisees refused John's baptism, and there were a lot of Pharisees.
Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
"All sins" does not include blaspheming the Holy Spirit, Jesus excepted that sin elsewhere.
Mark 5:20
And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all [men] did marvel.
Its probably safe to say "all" did not include those who were offended by Jesus.
Luke 2:1
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
"All" the world was obviously not taxed by Caesar. Caesar did not rule the entire world.
John 13:35
By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
You say 99% of people have never heard of Jesus. How will they "all" know who Jesus disciples are?
Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Attempting to apply this to "all" individuals does not make sense considering Hebrews 11:
Hebrews 11:4 "By faith Abel offered unto God..."
Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was translated...that he pleased God."
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham,..."
Hebrews 11:11 "Through faith also Sara..."
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Paul can not mean that there is nothing unlawful for him. He was under the "law of Christ".
1Corinthians 10:33
Even as I please all [men] in all [things], not seeking mine own profit, but the [profit] of many, that they may be saved.
Paul certainly did not please all men. Not the Pharisees and others who repeatedly persecuted and finally killed him.
Philippians 2:21
For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.
Paul certainly does not include Timothy or himself in "all". He is speaking of those not following Jesus.
2 Corinthians 3:2
Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
"All" can only refer to those who knew of them.
1Thessalonians 2:15
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
"All" is very obviously not talking about those in their own group.
2 Thessalonians 2:9
[Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
I would think "all power" would not include giving life and raising the dead.
I am sure a great number of other examples can be adduced but its bedtime.
Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"
I am sure a great number of other examples can be adduced but its bedtime.
Homer
Of course by the context in each case the use of "all" is self evident as opposed to many many examples where "all" may actually mean "all".
Jesus is the Savior of the world
He will bring joy to all men
As in Adam all die and in Christ all men shall be made alive
Verses like these of which there are many more need qualifications added to them to change the meaning. Therefore if they mean what they say and men without belief in Christ die in their sins, the process of "judgment" must include a process of redemption in the lake of fire.
If "judgment" does not include redemption then the statement "Jesus is the Savior of the world" simply can not be reconciled in any way to make sense, other then the reader adding on his own words.
Homer
Of course by the context in each case the use of "all" is self evident as opposed to many many examples where "all" may actually mean "all".
Jesus is the Savior of the world
He will bring joy to all men
As in Adam all die and in Christ all men shall be made alive
Verses like these of which there are many more need qualifications added to them to change the meaning. Therefore if they mean what they say and men without belief in Christ die in their sins, the process of "judgment" must include a process of redemption in the lake of fire.
If "judgment" does not include redemption then the statement "Jesus is the Savior of the world" simply can not be reconciled in any way to make sense, other then the reader adding on his own words.
Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"
steve7150
Matthew 27:11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11. Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?”
Jesus said to him, “It is as you say.”
Could it be that Jesus was the King of the Jews in the same way He is Saviour of the world? That He has the status even though many are unwilling to accept the fact? Makes very good sense to me. He is Saviour and King regardless of what the world may think.
Then consistent with your principle of interpretation of the scriptures, how does Jesus' statement make sense:You wrote:
Verses like these of which there are many more need qualifications added to them to change the meaning. Therefore if they mean what they say and men without belief in Christ die in their sins, the process of "judgment" must include a process of redemption in the lake of fire.
If "judgment" does not include redemption then the statement "Jesus is the Savior of the world" simply can not be reconciled in any way to make sense, other then the reader adding on his own words.
Matthew 27:11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11. Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?”
Jesus said to him, “It is as you say.”
Could it be that Jesus was the King of the Jews in the same way He is Saviour of the world? That He has the status even though many are unwilling to accept the fact? Makes very good sense to me. He is Saviour and King regardless of what the world may think.
Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"
Yes, Homer, you are quite right. Seldom, if ever, is "all" an absolute "all". One more example to back you up in this:
"...nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. (Matthew 5:15)
Of course that cannot be an absolute "all" since the lamp doesn't give light to the mice hidden in unlit parts of the house.
But the fact that there is seldom, if ever, and absolute "all" does not give us the interpretive right to diminish still further those included in the "all". Is it logical to conclude because the lamp does not give light to the mice, therefore it doesn't necessarily give light to all the people in the house either?
This seems to be your reasoning with the verses you quoted which exclude some individuals in the "all". For example your reasoning seems to be as follows. Because the sentence, "[God] is the Saviour of ALL men..." obviously doesn't include Jesus Himself, since He doesn't need salvation, therefore it is legitimate to limit the ALL still further, by excluding those who are not regenerated in this life. There is no logical syllogism of which I am aware, that can justify this as a valid conclusion.
Indeed, the entire sentence, "the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe," (I Timothy 4:10), implies that the unregenerate will be saved from sin, too. The reason being that the believers are especially saved! How are the believers especially saved (or "chiefly saved" or "above all saved"), compared to the unbelievers? They will not need to be corrected after they are raised to life again, at least to the same degree, as the lost. For those on the narrow path which leads to life are being saved throughout this life. So it appears that the "all people" in this context means "all people" (excluding our Lord Jesus Himself, of course).
"...nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. (Matthew 5:15)
Of course that cannot be an absolute "all" since the lamp doesn't give light to the mice hidden in unlit parts of the house.
But the fact that there is seldom, if ever, and absolute "all" does not give us the interpretive right to diminish still further those included in the "all". Is it logical to conclude because the lamp does not give light to the mice, therefore it doesn't necessarily give light to all the people in the house either?
This seems to be your reasoning with the verses you quoted which exclude some individuals in the "all". For example your reasoning seems to be as follows. Because the sentence, "[God] is the Saviour of ALL men..." obviously doesn't include Jesus Himself, since He doesn't need salvation, therefore it is legitimate to limit the ALL still further, by excluding those who are not regenerated in this life. There is no logical syllogism of which I am aware, that can justify this as a valid conclusion.
Indeed, the entire sentence, "the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe," (I Timothy 4:10), implies that the unregenerate will be saved from sin, too. The reason being that the believers are especially saved! How are the believers especially saved (or "chiefly saved" or "above all saved"), compared to the unbelievers? They will not need to be corrected after they are raised to life again, at least to the same degree, as the lost. For those on the narrow path which leads to life are being saved throughout this life. So it appears that the "all people" in this context means "all people" (excluding our Lord Jesus Himself, of course).
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"
BrotherAlan, I'm sorry I didn't fulfill my intention to discuss the scriptures you present in my next post as I said I would. I got distracted with Homer's scriptures to show that "all" seldom, if ever, is an absolute "all".
Indeed, "κολασις" doesn't mean "punishment" in the retributive sense, but in the reformative sense. Indeed, any good lexicon (Strongs excluded) will give "correction" as one of the meanings, or as the main meaning. The word was originally used concerning the correcting the growth of plants by pruning them. Later it was applied to correction of human behaviour, and is sometimes correctly translated as "chastise", as a good father might chastise his son, not to get back at his son, but to help his son to behave better. In this light, how could one experience "everlasting correction"? If it were everlasting, how would you ever become corrected? You couldn't be. So it would have to be everlasting retributive punishment, or else everlasting punishment in the sense of annihilation — in which case the writer would have chose to use "τιμορια" rather than "κολασις".
The Greek word "αιονιος" has no temporal connotations whatever. The way the word has been used in various writings suggest "lasting" as its meaning. The word doesn't mean "everlasting" nor does it mean "temporal". It simply means "lasting" and could be applied either to that which is everlasting or that which is temporal.
The word was used in koine Greek (the Greek spoken from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning “lasting” or “durable”.
Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews” book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to “αἰωνιος” imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence lasted only three years.
The word “αἰωνιος” is derived from the noun “αἰων” which means "age".
It is interesting that Chrysostom seemed to believe that “αἰωνιος” mean "lasting for an age." in his Homily of the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Ephesians, he wrote that the kingdom of Satan “is αἰωνιος (agey), in other words it will cease with the present αἰων (age).” So Chrysostum apparently believed that “αἰωνιος” meant exactly the opposite to “eternal”! ---- that is “temporary.”
Perhaps the most scholarly work I have ever examined on the use of the noun “αἰων” in Greek literature, in Hellenistic literature, in Philo of Alexandria, and in the Old Testament, was written by Helena Maria Keizer. It can be read free online at this site (scroll down to table of contents and click on any topic):
Life Time Entirety
"The false prophet shall be tormented day and night, for ever and ever." (Revelation 20, 10)
Here is a translation which is perhaps more correct and more literal:
They [the devil, the beast, and the false prophet] will be tested day and night into the ages of the ages.
The Online Bible Greek lexicon gives the primary meaning of "βασανιζω" as:
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
Notice the touchstone was used to test the PURITY of the gold or silver.
Figuratively, the word seems to have been used to test the purity of those who will be in the Lake of Fire, to check whether or not there has been a repentance and change in their character.
As Steve 7150 pointed out, the Greek word "αιονιος" does not mean "everlasting" or "eternal". The Greek word for "everlasting" is "αιδιος". This word is found in many of the classic Greek writings. It is found only twice in the New Testament, one of those refers to God's "eternal power and deity" (Romans 1:20 ESV). If Matthew had meant to quote Jesus as speaking of the "goats" as going into "everlasting punishment", why would he not have used the word "αιδιος"?You wrote:In many places, the Scriptures reveal to us that everlasting punishment is given to the devil and his angels, as well as to those who do evil in this life (and fail to repent of this evil before death). Some of the clearest revelations of this everlasting punishment for the demons and wicked men include the following:
"He (Christ) shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels...And these shall go to everlasting punishment: but the just to everlasting life." (Matthew 25:41, 46)
Indeed, "κολασις" doesn't mean "punishment" in the retributive sense, but in the reformative sense. Indeed, any good lexicon (Strongs excluded) will give "correction" as one of the meanings, or as the main meaning. The word was originally used concerning the correcting the growth of plants by pruning them. Later it was applied to correction of human behaviour, and is sometimes correctly translated as "chastise", as a good father might chastise his son, not to get back at his son, but to help his son to behave better. In this light, how could one experience "everlasting correction"? If it were everlasting, how would you ever become corrected? You couldn't be. So it would have to be everlasting retributive punishment, or else everlasting punishment in the sense of annihilation — in which case the writer would have chose to use "τιμορια" rather than "κολασις".
The Greek word "αιονιος" has no temporal connotations whatever. The way the word has been used in various writings suggest "lasting" as its meaning. The word doesn't mean "everlasting" nor does it mean "temporal". It simply means "lasting" and could be applied either to that which is everlasting or that which is temporal.
The word was used in koine Greek (the Greek spoken from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning “lasting” or “durable”.
Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews” book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to “αἰωνιος” imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence lasted only three years.
The word “αἰωνιος” is derived from the noun “αἰων” which means "age".
It is interesting that Chrysostom seemed to believe that “αἰωνιος” mean "lasting for an age." in his Homily of the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Ephesians, he wrote that the kingdom of Satan “is αἰωνιος (agey), in other words it will cease with the present αἰων (age).” So Chrysostum apparently believed that “αἰωνιος” meant exactly the opposite to “eternal”! ---- that is “temporary.”
Perhaps the most scholarly work I have ever examined on the use of the noun “αἰων” in Greek literature, in Hellenistic literature, in Philo of Alexandria, and in the Old Testament, was written by Helena Maria Keizer. It can be read free online at this site (scroll down to table of contents and click on any topic):
Life Time Entirety
Yes, these "everlasting chains" are the second example of "αἰδιος" occuring in the New Testament. But isn't it interesting they will be reserved in these everlasting chains "until the judgment of the great day". It appears that, though the chains are everlasting, the angels will be reserved in these chains only until the judgement of the great day."The angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he has reserved under darkness in everlasting chains....As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighboring cities, in like manner....were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 1:6-8)
"The false prophet shall be tormented day and night, for ever and ever." (Revelation 20, 10)
Here is a translation which is perhaps more correct and more literal:
They [the devil, the beast, and the false prophet] will be tested day and night into the ages of the ages.
The Online Bible Greek lexicon gives the primary meaning of "βασανιζω" as:
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
Notice the touchstone was used to test the PURITY of the gold or silver.
Figuratively, the word seems to have been used to test the purity of those who will be in the Lake of Fire, to check whether or not there has been a repentance and change in their character.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"
Paidion,
You wrote:
Regarding your response to BrotherAlan your speculations rival those of your champion Origen! There is nothing in the scripture about people being "corrected" in hell. And it is a fact that the Greek word kolasis meant punishment at the time the NT was written, as almost any lexicon you consult will inform you. But then they are not "good". That the word once meant correction by pruning is irrelevant. Our word "let" once meant "prevent", and that was not long ago (King James version, 2 Thess. 2:7).
The same goes for aionios, where almost any lexicon gives the meaning as "without beginning or end, everlasting, eternal, etc. The antithetic parallelism of Matthew 25:46 ought to make this obvious. It is almost comical the way the Universalists labor mightily to explain away one verse.
You wrote:
This argument is easily disposed of. Jesus was king of the Jews, especially of those who were His disciples. He was king in one sense to some, and in another sense to many others. Likewise He is Saviour in one sense to some, and in another sense to others who reject Him. How men respond does not change who He is.Indeed, the entire sentence, "the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe," (I Timothy 4:10), implies that the unregenerate will be saved from sin, too. The reason being that the believers are especially saved! How are the believers especially saved (or "chiefly saved" or "above all saved"), compared to the unbelievers? They will not need to be corrected after they are raised to life again, at least to the same degree, as the lost. For those on the narrow path which leads to life are being saved throughout this life. So it appears that the "all people" in this context means "all people" (excluding our Lord Jesus Himself, of course).
Regarding your response to BrotherAlan your speculations rival those of your champion Origen! There is nothing in the scripture about people being "corrected" in hell. And it is a fact that the Greek word kolasis meant punishment at the time the NT was written, as almost any lexicon you consult will inform you. But then they are not "good". That the word once meant correction by pruning is irrelevant. Our word "let" once meant "prevent", and that was not long ago (King James version, 2 Thess. 2:7).
The same goes for aionios, where almost any lexicon gives the meaning as "without beginning or end, everlasting, eternal, etc. The antithetic parallelism of Matthew 25:46 ought to make this obvious. It is almost comical the way the Universalists labor mightily to explain away one verse.