Possibly the mother of all dumb questions

[Homer]

Anyone ever have the feeling that when we think of God we try to make Him fit our "box" and be what we think He ought to be? What would our reaction be if we somehow learned without doubt that Calvinism is true?

[Michelle]

Anyone ever have the feeling that when we think of God we try to make Him fit our "box" and be what we think He ought to be?

Absolutely. I think that's why questions like this one keep floating to the front of my mind and take up my thinking.

What would our reaction be if we somehow learned without doubt that Calvinism is true?

I don't know. What would our reaction be if we somehow learned without doubt that Universalism is true? I think I'm in for the long-haul and have decided that whatever I find out about God, it is good, holy, and perfect.

[steve7150]

I don't know. What would our reaction be if we somehow learned without doubt that Universalism is true? I think I'm in for the long-haul and have decided that whatever I find out about God, it is good, holy, and perfect.





I'm not totally thrilled with universalism but i could understand it, but Calvinism as far as i can tell is completely arbitrary and holds people responsible for something they have no ability to overcome therefore it seems to violate God's attribute of justice.
So at the very least i would be completely confused.

[kaufmannphillips]

steve7150 wrote:
I'm not totally thrilled with universalism but i could understand it, but Calvinism as far as i can tell is completely arbitrary and holds people responsible for something they have no ability to overcome therefore it seems to violate God's attribute of justice.
So at the very least i would be completely confused.

Such might depend upon one's conception of "justice." Let us imagine that I choose to write an equation on a piece of paper: "2 + 2 = 3"... Then, to demonstrate my contempt for such a poor equation, and in the same vein, to give evidence of my superior mathematical sensibility, I tear up what I have written. The written equation cannot help being so poor, but from a certain perspective it might seem just for me to destroy such a contemptible thing and to demonstrate thereby my true mathematical ability. It does not matter that the equation cannot help itself; it still is what it is. And I made the equation, so from a certain perspective it might seem justly mine to dispose of as I see fit.

Depending, again, upon one's conception of "justice."

[steve7150]

It does not matter that the equation cannot help itself; it still is what it is. And I made the equation, so from a certain perspective it might seem justly mine to dispose of as I see fit.






If i understand you correctly it sounds like because God created man that gives him the right to dispose of him as he sees fit. The other issue is that my conception of justice may be different from God's conception of justice.
Clearly God can do anything but based on his charactor as revealed in Jesus and in the OT he has revealed his method of operation in dealing with humanity. He seems to always do things for a reason and he interacts with people based on their reactions to his commands or to his grace but never arbitrarily as far as i see therefore to get from that behavior to Calvinism would be inconsistent and unmerciful IMO.

[kaufmannphillips]

Hi, Steve -

steve7150 wrote:
If i understand you correctly it sounds like because God created man that gives him the right to dispose of him as he sees fit.

One could have that perspective. But certainly the notion could be debated. Does G-d's creation of humanity give G-d the right to treat humanity however he sees fit?

steve7150 wrote:
The other issue is that my conception of justice may be different from God's conception of justice.

And G-d's conception of justice may be different from the Calvinist's conception of justice.

steve7150 wrote:
Clearly God can do anything but based on his charactor as revealed in Jesus and in the OT he has revealed his method of operation in dealing with humanity. He seems to always do things for a reason and he interacts with people based on their reactions to his commands or to his grace but never arbitrarily as far as i see therefore to get from that behavior to Calvinism would be inconsistent and unmerciful IMO.

I suppose a Calvinist might argue that there is more to the biblical narrative than meets the eye of a casual audience.

From a Calvinist perspective, perhaps, nothing is arbitrary - or, if one would rather, everything is arbitrary. G-d has infinite power and knowledge, and accordingly everything transpires according to G-d's will. Every interaction has inexorable, destined reaction(s). So any person's ultimate fate is wholly in G-d's hands, to be determined as arbitrarily (or not) as he will.

[steve7150]

I suppose a Calvinist might argue that there is more to the biblical narrative than meets the eye of a casual audience.




The bible narrative should be consistent with regards to the method God follows and as far as i know there are no OT scholars who see Calvinism in the OT therefore that would mean God radically changed his methodology in the NT with no warning or explanation. Therefore i think the casual audience would more likely consist of Calvinists when considering the entire bible.

[kaufmannphillips]

kaufmannphillips wrote:
I suppose a Calvinist might argue that there is more to the biblical narrative than meets the eye of a casual audience.

steve7150 wrote:
The bible narrative should be consistent with regards to the method God follows and as far as i know there are no OT scholars who see Calvinism in the OT therefore that would mean God radically changed his methodology in the NT with no warning or explanation. Therefore i think the casual audience would more likely consist of Calvinists when considering the entire bible. {underlining added}

Are you baiting me, Steve? Dangling those bits I've underlined in front of me like that...

Calvinism is more strongly built upon theological reasoning than upon biblical narrative. So Calvinists can be casual enough to give little regard to theological tension with the narrative, yes - or attentive enough to harmonize their theological conclusions with narrative inconvenience.

[steve7150]

kaufmannphillips wrote:
I suppose a Calvinist might argue that there is more to the biblical narrative than meets the eye of a casual audience.

steve7150 wrote:
The bible narrative should be consistent with regards to the method God follows and as far as i know there are no OT scholars who see Calvinism in the OT therefore that would mean God radically changed his methodology in the NT with no warning or explanation. Therefore i think the casual audience would more likely consist of Calvinists when considering the entire bible. {underlining added}

Are you baiting me, Steve? Dangling those bits I've underlined in front of me like that...

Calvinism is more strongly built upon theological reasoning than upon biblical narrative. So Calvinists can be casual enough to give little regard to theological tension with the narrative, yes - or attentive enough to harmonize their theological conclusions with narrative inconvenience.

Sorry please ignore this post.

[steve7150]

kaufmannphillips wrote:
I suppose a Calvinist might argue that there is more to the biblical narrative than meets the eye of a casual audience.

steve7150 wrote:
The bible narrative should be consistent with regards to the method God follows and as far as i know there are no OT scholars who see Calvinism in the OT therefore that would mean God radically changed his methodology in the NT with no warning or explanation. Therefore i think the casual audience would more likely consist of Calvinists when considering the entire bible. {underlining added}

Are you baiting me, Steve? Dangling those bits I've underlined in front of me like that...

Calvinism is more strongly built upon theological reasoning than upon biblical narrative. So Calvinists can be casual enough to give little regard to theological tension with the narrative, yes - or attentive enough to harmonize their theological conclusions with narrative inconvenience.