Was John Mistaken?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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Re: Was John Mistaken?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:57 am

Homer wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2023 10:58 pm
Darin,

I've long heard it is best to let scripture interpret scripture. Couldn't be better than to let John interpret John could it?


Revelation 19:11-13 NASB

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Jesus is the WORD! Okey, explain it away.


OK, but what is inconsistent with his name being "CALLED" the Word of God because he is the enfleshed incarnation and manifestation of the Logos. It doesn't say he is and was and shall ever be the eternal Logos - it says his name is called that - the use of names in that culture was much different than existential identity.

Genesis 25:30, for example, says Essau's "name" was "called" Edom. That doesn't make Essau existentially the same as the nation of Edom. It means he is closely associated with it and is a representative and namesake of Edom.

dizerner

Re: Was John Mistaken?

Post by dizerner » Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:56 am

depends on what the meaning of "is" is

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darinhouston
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Re: Was John Mistaken?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Sep 13, 2023 5:41 pm

dizerner wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:56 am
depends on what the meaning of "is" is
Is that mockery?

dizerner

Re: Was John Mistaken?

Post by dizerner » Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:35 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2023 5:41 pm
Is that mockery?
No, but it's definitely making a valid point.

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darinhouston
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Re: Was John Mistaken?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:26 pm

dizerner wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:35 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2023 5:41 pm
Is that mockery?
No, but it's definitely making a valid point.
What point are you trying to make?

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Homer
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Re: Was John Mistaken?

Post by Homer » Sat Sep 16, 2023 2:52 pm

Darin,

I have difficulty understanding just what you believe John was saying about God and Jesus in the prologue to his Gospel
John 1:1-18. Could you inform me as to whom you believe the personal pronouns highlighted in red refer to in each of the following cases?

New American Standard Bible
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.

9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and called out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who is coming after me has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.

Thaks, Homer

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darinhouston
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Re: Was John Mistaken?

Post by darinhouston » Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:21 pm

Homer wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2023 2:52 pm
Darin,

I have difficulty understanding just what you believe John was saying about God and Jesus in the prologue to his Gospel
John 1:1-18. Could you inform me as to whom you believe the personal pronouns highlighted in red refer to in each of the following cases?

New American Standard Bible
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.

9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and called out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who is coming after me has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.

Thaks, Homer
There are often ambiguities in determining referents to pronouns and are usually driven by context - in a stylistic literary device like this it can be a challenge, and is driven by presuppositions and presumed context. So, depending on how you see what's being said here, I've seen interpretations that seem reasonable which would drive slightly different pronoun referents. But, this is the most common, I would think. It might also bear closer study but this isn't algebra - it's a poetic intro with several different things going on stylistically - so it is a challenge no matter what position you take. This is but one attempt.


The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The Word was with God in the beginning. 3Through the Word all things were made; without the Word nothing was made that has been made. 4Life was in the Word, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome a that light.

6There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7John came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8John himself was not the light; John came only as a witness to the light.

9The true light (Jesus)that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10The Word was in the world, and though the world was made through the Word, the world did not recognize the Word. 11The Light, Jesus came to that which was Jesus’ own, but Jesus’ own did not receive Jesus. 12Yet to all who did receive the Word, to those who believed in Jesus’ name, Jesus gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made the Word and God through Jesus dwelling among us. We have seen the glory of God and the Word, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15(John testified concerning Jesus. John cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”) 16Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and b is in closest relationship with the Father, has made God known.

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Homer
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Re: Was John Mistaken?

Post by Homer » Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:38 pm

Darin,

You wrote:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The Word was with God in the beginning. 3Through the Word all things were made; without the Word nothing was made that has been made. 4Life was in the Word, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome a that light.
You appear to say that the Word was/is alive, and that life was in the world (mankind) providing light to all mankind. Jesus' own words confirm that He was/is that light:

John 8:12
New American Standard Bible

12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; the one who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”


It would seem that:

The Word was alive

That living word enlightens all mankind

According to Jesus' own words, He is that light

Jesus was the Word John spoke of.

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darinhouston
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Re: Was John Mistaken?

Post by darinhouston » Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:58 pm

Homer wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:38 pm
Darin,

You wrote:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The Word was with God in the beginning. 3Through the Word all things were made; without the Word nothing was made that has been made. 4Life was in the Word, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome a that light.
You appear to say that the Word was/is alive, and that life was in the world (mankind) providing light to all mankind. Jesus' own words confirm that He was/is that light:

John 8:12
New American Standard Bible

12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; the one who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”


It would seem that:

The Word was alive

That living word enlightens all mankind

According to Jesus' own words, He is that light

Jesus was the Word John spoke of.
You are being too literal to my mind. The "light" is both a qualitative characteristic and is also personified in Jesus - it's not either/or. In the gospel is life and light that illuminates the world - Jesus is that gospel - he's not the words themselves but they speak of him and he is the embodiment or incarnation of the gospel itself. Again, it's not algebra - it's Hebrew poetry with greek concepts.

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Homer
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Re: Was John Mistaken?

Post by Homer » Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:35 pm

Darin,

You wrote:
The "light" is both a qualitative characteristic and is also personified in Jesus
I have no quarrel with this statement as far as it goes. The bigger question to me is was the light personified in The Word, the status quo ante the incarnation. I affirm and you appear to deny. I can't see how you can possibly get around this:

Philippians 2:5-8

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross.

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