Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:50 am

1 Timothy 1:17, referring to Jesus, from verse 16, calls Him "the only God". 1 Timothy 6:15, again referring to Jesus from verse 14, calls Jesus "the only Sovereign", and "the King of Kings and Lord of Lords", again showing that He is God.

dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:43 pm

We also see that, in Paul's letter to Timothy, he calls God "our Savior" - 1 Timothy 1:1; 2:3; and 4:10 says that "the living God is the Savior of all men". Yet we know that Jesus is "the Savior of the world." John 4:42; Luke 2:11; Acts 5:31; 2 Timothy 1:10. In 2 Peter 1:1, Peter calls Jesus Christ both "our God and Savior". In 2 Peter 1:11, Peter uses the phrase, "our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." He repeats that phrase three more times - 2 Peter 2:20, 3:2, and 3:18. Jude 25 says that God is our Savior.

There is no question that "God" and "Jesus" are used interchangeably, as well as separately, which is what we would expect, if Jesus is God, and that a Trinity exists.

dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:32 pm

Do you remember the story where one leper out of ten cleansed by Jesus, came back to glorify God with a loud voice, and he fell on his face at His feet, giving thanks to Him? If he wanted to glorify God, then why would he return to Jesus, glorifying Him with a loud voice - if Jesus is not God? Also, why did Jesus ask - "Was no one found to give glory to God, except this foreigner?"? If Jesus was not God, then why did He equate glorifying Him and thanking Him with glorifying God? If Jesus was not God, then the other nine had no need to return to Jesus because they could have glorified God right where they were.

It's similar to the demon-possessed man (or men) in the tombs. Jesus told him to return to his house "and describe what great things God has done for you." Luke's commentary is the next sentence: "So he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him." Even Luke uses "God" and "Jesus" interchangeably.

dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:09 am

Have you noticed that Jesus never prayed with his disciples or with anyone else? Some might say that when He raised Lazarus from the dead, He prayed, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me ..." implying that He prayed earlier, apparently alone, as usual. Another time in Luke 10:21, He prayed, "I praise You O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent ..."

But, in both cases, I don't believe we could say He was praying WITH His disciples. as, let's say, you and I would pray together. In His raising of Lazarus, He even said, "because of the people standing around, I said it, ..." Likewise, in Luke 10:21, His rejoicing seemed to overflow into praise and a revelation of how God deals with different types of people - again, for our ears, as well as the Father's.

You might think that when He taught His disciples how to pray, He would say - "Okay, let's try it now, let's pray together." - but He did not do that. Why?

We do have examples of the apostles praying together, and with other believers: Acts 1:24; Acts 4:31; Acts 8:15; Acts 13:3; Acts 14:23; Acts 20:36; Acts 28:8. Even when Jesus asked His disciples to "keep watch with Him" (Matthew 26:40) in the garden of Gethsemane, He told them "Sit here while I go over there and pray." He did take Peter, James, and John with Him initially (Matthew 26:37), but then He even told them "to remain here" and then "He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed." Even in His darkest hour, He did not ask them to pray WITH Him. He would pray by Himself, alone.

Why? I could be wrong, but my guess is that because He was God in the flesh, it would be totally inappropriate, maybe even foolish, to pray to God, when He is right there WITH you in the flesh. Why would you need to talk to God in prayer, if God was in the room, physically, with you? If He were not God, there would be no issue in praying WITH Him.

Jesus went out of His way, to pray ALONE. Matthew 14:23 (He climbed a mountain to be ALONE); Mark 6:46 (Again, a mountain); Luke 9:18; Luke 6:12;
Luke 5:16 and I'm sure there are many more references.

Jesus commanded His followers to pray, even told parables about prayer, taught them how to pray, was an example of a person who prayed, but never really prayed WITH them.

Does anybody else have a better explanation?

dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:14 am

It's interesting that David prophesied in Psalm 2 about the Lord and His Anointed (Christ), how the nations and evil people and kings took their stand against them, speaking of two "Persons" in heaven. Then he continues His prophecy in verse 4, still referring to them, but now saying "He (singular) who sits in the heavens laughs, the Lord (singular) scoffs at them. Then He (singular) will speak to them in His (singular) anger and terrify them in His (singular) fury." David admonishes them to "Worship the Lord with reverence and rejoice with trembling. Do homage (give worship) to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, for His wrath may soon be kindled." It's clear that the wrath of the Lord, the Father, is the same as the wrath of the Son, because they are One, they are God.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:57 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:14 am
It's interesting that David prophesied in Psalm 2 about the Lord and His Anointed (Christ), how the nations and evil people and kings took their stand against them, speaking of two "Persons" in heaven. Then he continues His prophecy in verse 4, still referring to them, but now saying "He (singular) who sits in the heavens laughs, the Lord (singular) scoffs at them. Then He (singular) will speak to them in His (singular) anger and terrify them in His (singular) fury." David admonishes them to "Worship the Lord with reverence and rejoice with trembling. Do homage (give worship) to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, for His wrath may soon be kindled." It's clear that the wrath of the Lord, the Father, is the same as the wrath of the Son, because they are One, they are God.
I'm trying not to respond to your every post, but this one is discrete enough it might be worth a few words. Basically, I think you're (again) stretching it a bit too far and trying too hard. Yes, the NT applies this text to Jesus several times and it is appropriate. But, the context as David wrote it was to himself (likely) or another in his day - not as a prophecy. I really don't get how you extrapolate to him talking about two persons in heaven - he was talking about two persons, but not necessarily (or even likely) in heaven.

dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:17 am

darinhouston wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:57 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:14 am
It's interesting that David prophesied in Psalm 2 about the Lord and His Anointed (Christ), how the nations and evil people and kings took their stand against them, speaking of two "Persons" in heaven. Then he continues His prophecy in verse 4, still referring to them, but now saying "He (singular) who sits in the heavens laughs, the Lord (singular) scoffs at them. Then He (singular) will speak to them in His (singular) anger and terrify them in His (singular) fury." David admonishes them to "Worship the Lord with reverence and rejoice with trembling. Do homage (give worship) to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, for His wrath may soon be kindled." It's clear that the wrath of the Lord, the Father, is the same as the wrath of the Son, because they are One, they are God.
I'm trying not to respond to your every post, but this one is discrete enough it might be worth a few words. Basically, I think you're (again) stretching it a bit too far and trying too hard. Yes, the NT applies this text to Jesus several times and it is appropriate. But, the context as David wrote it was to himself (likely) or another in his day - not as a prophecy. I really don't get how you extrapolate to him talking about two persons in heaven - he was talking about two persons, but not necessarily (or even likely) in heaven.
Dwight - Steve has said it many times, as others have too, that the interpretation that the New Testament writers give to an Old Testament passage is the correct interpretation. So Jesus is the Anointed One spoken of here, which automatically makes it a prophecy, because Jesus' anointing was close to 1000 years in the future. Likewise His ascension into heaven was shortly (about 3 1/2 years) after that. Obviously, the Lord (the Father) is in heaven (verse 4), even as He was back then, and He Himself predicts the future about His Son in verses 7-9, which is confirmed in Acts 13:33, which again speaks of Christ's ascension into heaven. David calls kings to worship the Lord (the Father) and to do homage to the Son, as if they were together in the same place - heaven. However, it seems that the Son was known as the Word back then, but David is prophesying about the resurrection of Jesus into heaven.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:17 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:17 am
darinhouston wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:57 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:14 am
It's interesting that David prophesied in Psalm 2 about the Lord and His Anointed (Christ), how the nations and evil people and kings took their stand against them, speaking of two "Persons" in heaven. Then he continues His prophecy in verse 4, still referring to them, but now saying "He (singular) who sits in the heavens laughs, the Lord (singular) scoffs at them. Then He (singular) will speak to them in His (singular) anger and terrify them in His (singular) fury." David admonishes them to "Worship the Lord with reverence and rejoice with trembling. Do homage (give worship) to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, for His wrath may soon be kindled." It's clear that the wrath of the Lord, the Father, is the same as the wrath of the Son, because they are One, they are God.
I'm trying not to respond to your every post, but this one is discrete enough it might be worth a few words. Basically, I think you're (again) stretching it a bit too far and trying too hard. Yes, the NT applies this text to Jesus several times and it is appropriate. But, the context as David wrote it was to himself (likely) or another in his day - not as a prophecy. I really don't get how you extrapolate to him talking about two persons in heaven - he was talking about two persons, but not necessarily (or even likely) in heaven.
Dwight - Steve has said it many times, as others have too, that the interpretation that the New Testament writers give to an Old Testament passage is the correct interpretation. So Jesus is the Anointed One spoken of here, which automatically makes it a prophecy, because Jesus' anointing was close to 1000 years in the future. Likewise His ascension into heaven was shortly (about 3 1/2 years) after that. Obviously, the Lord (the Father) is in heaven (verse 4), even as He was back then, and He Himself predicts the future about His Son in verses 7-9, which is confirmed in Acts 13:33, which again speaks of Christ's ascension into heaven. David calls kings to worship the Lord (the Father) and to do homage to the Son, as if they were together in the same place - heaven. However, it seems that the Son was known as the Word back then, but David is prophesying about the resurrection of Jesus into heaven.
Having a prophetic aspect to it does not make it a prophecy per se. But, even your response acknowledges that David wasn't talking about Jesus in heaven at the time. So, I don't see how much value this has in proving your point. We all agree Jesus is in heaven now at the right hand of God.

dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:25 pm

The whole context of the chapter makes it clear to anyone reading it, that to reject God's Son, the Anointed One, Christ, is to reject God. Christ had not yet physically appeared on the earth, but David, nonetheless, informs the rebelling nations and wicked kings, that they will not only suffer God's wrath, but also the wrath of the Son, if they don't repent and worship Him, i.e. the Father and the Son.

The apostle John tells us that Christ was actually "The Word" back then, but David, being a prophet, prophesied and called Him God's "Anointed" and God's Son. David clearly is inspired by God here to, in essence, connect the Old Testament with the New, in equating the wrath of God with the wrath of His Son, and equating the worship of God with the worship of His Son. So it is obvious, that they indeed are One.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:25 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:25 pm
The whole context of the chapter makes it clear to anyone reading it, that to reject God's Son, the Anointed One, Christ, is to reject God. Christ had not yet physically appeared on the earth, but David, nonetheless, informs the rebelling nations and wicked kings, that they will not only suffer God's wrath, but also the wrath of the Son, if they don't repent and worship Him, i.e. the Father and the Son.

The apostle John tells us that Christ was actually "The Word" back then, but David, being a prophet, prophesied and called Him God's "Anointed" and God's Son. David clearly is inspired by God here to, in essence, connect the Old Testament with the New, in equating the wrath of God with the wrath of His Son, and equating the worship of God with the worship of His Son. So it is obvious, that they indeed are One.
Rejecting David or rejecting Israel was also rejecting God. That doesn't make them God.

The apostle John tells us that The Word was something in the beginning (though what beginning is unclear) and that it was "like God" or made of "God stuff" or "aligned with God" or the like (the grammar is awkward and somewhat ambiguous) -- but he doesn't tell us that Christ WAS that Word (that's an inference). Only that that Word became enfleshed in Christ. Don't put words in John's mouth. You act like you are quoting, but you are interpreting. You "could" be right, but it's only "argument." There is a reason John didn't say "Christ" was in the beginning with God. We all have to interpret what he meant, but he didn't say what you say he said.

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