Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:32 am

Paidion wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:16 pm
WHAT??? You believe that Jesus IS his father?

Jesus said:
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said to me, so I speak.
(John 12:50)


"As the Father said to me" Was Jesus talking to himself?
Dwight - Don't act surprised. You have read my posts where I have stated such. I have said this before. I believe Steve has said it. In one sense the Father and the Son are separate and distinct, and in another sense, they are one and the same. The mystery of the Trinity. Traditional or not, like it or not, we are faced with that conclusion.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:35 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:32 am
Paidion wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:16 pm
WHAT??? You believe that Jesus IS his father?

Jesus said:
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said to me, so I speak.
(John 12:50)


"As the Father said to me" Was Jesus talking to himself?
Dwight - Don't act surprised. You have read my posts where I have stated such. I have said this before. I believe Steve has said it. In one sense the Father and the Son are separate and distinct, and in another sense, they are one and the same. The mystery of the Trinity. Traditional or not, like it or not, we are faced with that conclusion.
Not that you "should," but I'm thinking you can't affirm what is represented here...

Image

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:38 pm

Yes, this chart that Darin has presented, and which I have often seen, well represents classic Trinitarianism.
I don't think Dwight is a classic Trinitarian.

The chart indicates that God is not a person, but a class of persons of which there are three members.

However, when the Biblical writers used the word "God" they were referring to the Father alone.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Otherness
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:46 pm

Re: Jesus is God

Post by Otherness » Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:57 pm

Yes, the above chart well represents classic Trinitarianism.

Paidion>>>The chart indicates that God is not a person, but a class of persons of which there are three members.<<<

Not quite. It indicates that the “I” Who is God is not to be measured according to the “i” that is created.

Darinhouston>>>Not that you "should," but I'm thinking you can't affirm what is represented here... <<<

The following is an affirmation of what is represented.

“God” is a title, a category of being, and, as a Trinitarian, I recognize that God is (a) PERSON-al Being, an “I AM.” As a matter of fact, this Being, this God, clearly communicated His Essence and Nature in Exodus 3 as YHWH [indicating simply THAT which (alone, truly) IS : an “I”].

This Uncreated PERSON-al Being (GOD) is (in) a unique category of being (vis-a-vis created being). That is, there is nothing in (the nature of) created being (genuinely) analogous to the aseity of Uncreated Being.

Uncreated Being [I (AM)] IS WHO (and WHAT) I AM says He IS (Self-Identifies As)!

If I AM says He is a rock, then He is a rock because He says so. But, of course, He can't say He is a rock because He cannot deny Himself (that is, HE is “I”).

Who and What He IS is the GIVEN upon which all reason sits, and from which all (true) reasoning (about Him) must proceed.

From the data of Scripture I accept that He self-identifies as Father/Son/Holy Spirit. This is the Given from which I reason, thus the question of how one I AM is triune is “meaningless” because His aseity is the HOW it is so.

This is why, in previous posts, I have witnessed that the question WHY (He is Trinity) is the way for us to understand this “mystery.” The answer to “why” is that this, His Trinitarian State, is His Creative State of Being. That is, I AM, in His desire to create that which He (ultimately) desires, the Body of Christ (other beings in His Image – His children), is His reason for being Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

It is the very (essential) “OTHERNESS” of His Creative State of Being that (spiritually) grounds the reality of the “otherness” (the objective reality) that is Creation. “In other words,” it is His essential OTHERNESS within Himself that grounds our distinct object / object reality, because we must remember that the whole of Creation arises from the nothingness, the immateriality, that is (merely) His expressed thought : words. The true (spiritual) nature of reality demands an intrinsic “otherness” in itself because words are distinct entities (quantities) while “thought,” itself, is a quality.

Again, think of what we believe : the only eternal, immortal, Reality is an “I.” Our reality exists because “I” is holding it in being in Himself (Acts 17:28). Unless one is a pantheist there is (must be) an essential and fundamental “OTHERNESS” within His Being within which His Creation exists. This “OTHERNESS” must be as real as He IS else His Creation is but a dream He is having. He establishes the realty of this “OTHERNESS” by existing in the Creative State we call “the Trinity.” Not only this, but the self-identity of His “OTHERNESS,” Father/Son/Holy Spirit, sets the trajectory of the identity and alpha/omega of His Expressed Thought (Creation) so that the Body of Christ is its predestined fruit.

As said elsewhere, this apologetic for Trinitarianism, though “justified” by Scripture, is primarily inspired by the “general revelation” about the nature of our reality that has come to light in the last century. God's creation is destined to witness (again) to His glory, for “the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.”

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Did Jesus Raise Himself?

Post by Paidion » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:43 am

Ac 13:30 But God raised him from the dead,
Ac 13:34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way, "’I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’
Ro 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.
Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
1Pe 1:20,21 He (Christ) was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.


Notice that the passage from Galatians specifies that it was God the Father who raised Jesus from the deadl
If the Father had not raised him, he'd still be dead.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:59 pm

You conveniently ignore John 2:19 where Jesus says "Destroy this temple and in three days, I will raise it up." Also ignored is John 10:17-18: "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from the Father." He alone out of all humanity had the authority to allow His body to be killed, and then after He was killed, He had the authority to raise up His own body!!

But the scriptures you quoted, Paidion, say that the Father raised Jesus from the dead, and we all agree that that is true. These scriptures say that Jesus raised Himself from the dead, but apparently we don't all agree with these verses. Yet I (and many others) ALSO AGREE THAT THESE VERSES ARE TRUE. So God raised Jesus and yet Jesus raised Himself. That's what the Bible teaches.

Another related verse could be John 5:26 - "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself." Ponder this verse for awhile. The Father did this with no other person or human - only Jesus.

The Father wanted Jesus to be just like Him, because He WAS HIM.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:38 pm

Matthew 15:31 - "So the crowd marveled as they saw the mute speaking, the crippled restored, and the lame walking, and the blind seeing; AND THEY GLORIFIED THE GOD OF ISRAEL."

If this is not referring to Jesus, then I'll eat my hat. He was the One visible, doing the marvelous healings, all eyes were on Him. Obviously, they were glorifying Him, Jesus, who is the God of Israel.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:58 pm

Dwight wrote:Matthew 15:31 - "So the crowd marveled as they saw the mute speaking, the crippled restored, and the lame walking, and the blind seeing; AND THEY GLORIFIED THE GOD OF ISRAEL."

If this is not referring to Jesus, then I'll eat my hat. He was the One visible, doing the marvelous healings, all eyes were on Him. Obviously, they were glorifying Him, Jesus, who is the God of Israel.
Maybe you should boil your hat for a few hours first, and apply condiments.
There is no indication whatever that because they glorified the God of Israel, that this implied that Jesus was the God of Israel.

Even today, God sometimes heals people when someone prays. Because some Godly man prays, and people are healed, and those who witness these healings glorify the God of Israel, in no way implies that the man who prayed for these healings WAS the God of Israel.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:20 pm

Jesus commanded healings. Where does it say that He prayed for healings to occur?

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:25 pm

Men pray for God's power to intervene, God simply speaks the word and it happens, which is what Jesus did.

Post Reply

Return to “Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology”