Born Again or Begotten Again?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Paidion
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Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Paidion » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:54 pm

Born Again or Begotten Again?

There is born to you this day in the city of David a Saviour who is the Anointed, the Lord. (Luke 2:11)

The word in this verse correctly translated as “born” is “ετεχθη” the aorist passive indicative of the verb “τικτω” (I bear).

But there is another word that is translated as born in the following verse (by virtually all translations). Jesus said:

Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ (John 3:7 ESV)

The Greek word is not any form of the word “τικτω”. It is “γεννηθηναι”, the aorist passive infinitive of the verb “γενναω” (I beget). It is the word found in the geneologies in Matthew 1:

Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. (Matthew 1:2 ESV)

Now clearly these men did not give birth to their sons! The word correctly translated as “begot” is a form of “γενναω” (I beget) and not of “τικτω” (I bear)

So I affirm that Jesus told his hearers (as recorded in John 3:7), “You must be begotten again.”
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Seballius
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Seballius » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:00 am

Hello Paidion

If you think it right says - “you must be begotten again”, how does that differ from being born again?

Does the change in word have any applicable difference with the adherent?

Thanks and God bless


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Paidion
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Paidion » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:32 pm

Seballius, you asked:
If you think it right says - “you must be begotten again”, how does that differ from being born again?
Consider your physical begetting and birth. You were begotten when the sperm entered the egg. You were born, after you spent 9 months growing in your mother's womb.

Spiritually, you were begotten again when you submitted to the Lordship of Jesus. Your life in this world is your growth as a Christian. But some day, "He who begat a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."(Philippians 1:6). The day of Jesus Christ is the day of His return. On that day, all who have submitted to Jesus and who have died, will be raised to life again. And those are alive at His return will be "will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (I Thessalonians 4:7). So our resurrection (if we die before the Lord's return) or our being caught up to meet Him (if we are still alive at that time) will be the new birth. We will be born into our new body or be changed into it.That will be the second birth when we are born again.
Paidion

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willowtree
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by willowtree » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:24 pm

I was looking at Phil 1:6-7 recently because I was confused about some translations which use the word 'until' the day of Christ Jesus, not 'at the day..'. In many, if not all othe uses of the word 'epi' there seems to be an indication of a time separation between the two events. If so then the completion would take place at some point in time aand then continue until the day of Christ Jesus.
My understanding of Greek is not that good, so I would value your comments on wbat the best translation of Paul's statement really is.

Graeme
If you find yourself between a rock and a hard place, always head for the rock. Ps 62..

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Paidion
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Paidion » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:59 pm

I was looking at Phil 1:6-7 recently because I was confused about some translations which use the word 'until' the day of Christ Jesus, not 'at the day..'. In many, if not all othe uses of the word 'epi' there seems to be an indication of a time separation between the two events. If so then the completion would take place at some point in time aand then continue until the day of Christ Jesus.
My understanding of Greek is not that good, so I would value your comments on wbat the best translation of Paul's statement really is.

Graeme
Graeme, the preposition "επι" (epi) can indeed mean "at." However, that is not the word that is used in Phil 1:6. At least it is not the word used in Textus Receptus (from which the King James Version was translated),nor in the Westcott-Hort manuscript, nor in Titschendorf. Then I looked it up in Papyrus 46 which is dated about A.D.150.

All of these manuscripts use the preposition "αχρι"(achri) which means "until." So I am convinced that the translation "until the day of Jesus Christ" is correct.
Paidion

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willowtree
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by willowtree » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:19 pm

Thanks, Paidion for your response. I see now in looking at it again (in Biblehub) that 'achri' is used in its Greek text. I must have picked up the 'epi' from the word translated completion.
I am comfortable with the word until, and the notion that whatever else takes place on the day of Christ Jesus, our salvation has already reached a state or condition of completion in anticipation of that event and is not dependent on that event for any more 'redemptive' work yet to be done.
One factor in this idea that the day of Christ Jesus is immediately preceded by mortal death, at least in our conscious awareness. Death, to me, is the final 'enemy'to be dealt with, and therefore has no meritorious redemptive function.
All of this came to my mind in your previous post in which I understood you to imply that we are begotten in this life but not born until the second coming. This is strange to my thinking.
Graeme
If you find yourself between a rock and a hard place, always head for the rock. Ps 62..

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Paidion
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Paidion » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:10 pm

Thanks Graeme, I see now what you were getting at in your reference to Phil 1:6.

As I understand it, the Lord began a good work in us, but then continues that work of salvation from sin in us until it will have been completed at the day of Jesus Christ. Salvation is a life-long process. If our salvation from sin were already an accomplished fact in our present life, then we would never sin again.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Homer » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:02 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
The Greek word is not any form of the word “τικτω”. It is “γεννηθηναι”, the aorist passive infinitive of the verb “γενναω” (I beget). It is the word found in the geneologies in Matthew 1:

Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. (Matthew 1:2 ESV)

Now clearly these men did not give birth to their sons! The word correctly translated as “begot” is a form of “γενναω” (I beget) and not of “τικτω” (I bear)

So I affirm that Jesus told his hearers (as recorded in John 3:7), “You must be begotten again.”
And you wrote:
Consider your physical begetting and birth. You were begotten when the sperm entered the egg. You were born, after you spent 9 months growing in your mother's womb.

Spiritually, you were begotten again when you submitted to the Lordship of Jesus. Your life in this world is your growth as a Christian. But some day, "He who begat a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."(Philippians 1:6). The day of Jesus Christ is the day of His return. On that day, all who have submitted to Jesus and who have died, will be raised to life again. And those are alive at His return will be "will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (I Thessalonians 4:7). So our resurrection (if we die before the Lord's return) or our being caught up to meet Him (if we are still alive at that time) will be the new birth. We will be born into our new body or be changed into it.That will be the second birth when we are born again.
I am unable to grasp how your understanding of the metaphor of the "new birth" works. When Jesus informed Nicodemus that he must be born again he was metaphorically speaking to a dead man. Being begotten implies no preexistence, but the new birth (or "resurrection", see below) speaks of one who exists. There is a change of state, not of existence. Prior to being begotten there is no existence.

Nicodemus was metaphorically "dead":

Ephesians 2:1 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

2. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,


And this new birth is also likened to a resurrection, which also implies preexistence:

Colossians 2:12-13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12. having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,


IMO you have mistakenly limited the meaning of the Greek gennao. The article on gennao in Kittle's Theological Dictionary has the following comment:

"this term has the meaning of the 'begetting' of the father and the 'bearing' of the mother, not only in Greek generally, but also in the LXX and NT."

If we compare the life of a Christian to being begotten and in the womb it seems to me to indicate an entirely passive state of complete ignorance.

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Paidion
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Paidion » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:01 pm

Homer, you wrote: If we compare the life of a Christian to being begotten and in the womb it seems to me to indicate an entirely passive state of complete ignorance.
I don't understand either your meaning here or your reasoning.

Firstly, I didn't compare the life of a Christian to being begotten. I compared the beginning of the life of a Christian (when the person first submits himself to the authority of Jesus) to the beginning of physical life when the zygote is produced as a sperm unites with an egg.

Secondly, I compared Christian growth in the Christian life, with the physical growth of a human being in the womb, from a zygote to the mature baby.

Thirdly, I compared the resurrection of the Christian (which takes place in the day of Christ's return) with the birth of the mature baby when its mother gives birth.
Paidion

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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Paidion » Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:23 pm

There are two distinct words for "born" and "begotten." The word for "born" or "give birth" is "τικτω" (tiktō) whereas the word for "begotten" or "conceive" is "γενναω" (gennaō). Here are some examples of each:

And she will bring forth (tiktō) a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.” (Matthew 1:21)

So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear (tiktō) a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” (Matthew 1:22,23)

Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth (tiktō) her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS. (Matthew 1:24,25)

Now after Jesus was born (tiktō) in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born (tiktō) King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.” (Matthew 2:1,2)

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Abraham begot (gennaō) Isaac, Isaac and begot (gennaō) Jacob, Jacob and begot (gennaō) Judas and his brothers. (Matthew 1:2)
Did Abraham give birth to Isaac? etc.

Indeed the son of man goes as it has been written about him; Woe but to the man through whom the son of the man is delivered up; it would have been good for him, if that man had not been begotten (gennaō) . (Matthew 26:24)

Jesus, answering, aid to him: truly, truly, I tell you, if anyone has not been begotten (gennaō) from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of the God. Nicodemus said to him, "How is a man being old able to be begotten (gennaō)? He is not is able to enter into the womb of his mother a second time, and be begotten (gennaō). (John 3:3,4)

They said then to him: We were not begotten (gennaō) from fornication; we have one father — God. (John 8:41)


Now I know that several translators sometimes render "gennaō" as "born", but in my opinion, this is an error.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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