Jesus: Truly God in the Gospels

[mattrose]

Then why does the Trinitarian insist on preaching that Jesus Christ is God, and him ONLY to the non-Trinitarian,

While all trinitarians insist that Jesus is God, I don't know any trinitarians who would insist that Jesus ONLY is God. That goes against the very definition of trinitarianism.

[Jill]

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[Candlepower]

Do you think that The Father is less than The Son who is Christ ? or, do you think that The Father remains The Father even still, because God The Father never changes.The Son was born of woman, not The Father who is God. Joseph was told to name the child Jesus. Jesus submitted himself in all ways unto God, who is The Father.

Jill,

Isaiah 9:6 tells us, "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." This is a clear prophecy about Our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 14:9 records Jesus' conversation with Philip concerning the relationship between The Lord Jesus and The Everlasting Father. "Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" This is clear confirmation (by Jesus Himself) of what He inspired Isaiah to write hundreds of years before the incarnation.

My finite mind cannot comprehend this unity/diversity enigma. My brain goes into a hopeless knot. How can it be that Jesus is the Father, and yet be submissive to the Father? Well there's the mystery.

I thank God that He does not expect me to be able to wrap my mind around that mystery. I will try to understand it as best I can, but when I come to the end of my ability to understand, I choose not to fill in the blanks with my speculation (or someone elses's), and call it truth.

I could insist on solving this mystery by declaring, "Well, Jesus is the Son, God is the Father, and never the twain shall meet," but I am still left with nowhere to file Isaiah 9:6 and John 14:9.

Therefore, I accept Scripture at face value and leave the mystery with God. Jesus is The Father -- The Father is Jesus -- both are distinct -- I've tried to
figure it out -- I can't -- I don't have to -- I won't worry about it.

I've decided NOT to look at Jesus and ask Him to "Show me the Father."

Candlepower

[Jill]

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[BrotherAlan]

Now, with regard to John 17:3, Christ is praying to the Father, and He addresses the Father as "the only true God"; very true. But, when Christ addresses the Father as "the one true God", He is simply asserting the Father has FULL possession of the one and ONLY divine nature. He is NOT asserting that ONLY the Father has this divine nature; but, again, that the Father does indeed have full possession of the one and only divine nature. For, note that Christ does NOT address the Father by saying, "ONLY You, Father, are the true God," but, rather, "You are the ONLY true God."

Let's see how this would work with Adam and Eve, when there were no other humans upon the earth.

Eve says to Adam, "There will be continuing human life, children generated from you, the only true human being on earth, and Eve, who came out from you as a rib." When Eve addresses Adam as "the only true human being", she is simply asserting that Adam has FULL possession of the one and ONLY human nature. She is NOT asserting that ONLY Adam has this human nature; but, again, Adam does indeed have full possession of the one and only human nature. For note that Eve does NOT address Adam by saying, "ONLY you, Adam, are the true human," but, rather, "You are the ONLY true human."

Does it make sense?

Hello Paidion (and others “tuning in”),

First, here is my response, Paidion, to the objection you raised (above):

"Full possession" of a nature can be understood in two ways.

In the first way, a subject having full possession of a nature can mean that the subject does not lack anything which is essential to that nature. Thus, since Adam was fully human, lacking nothing in himself that is essential to human nature, it is true to say, in this sense, that he has "full possession" of human nature.

In a second way, a subject has full possession of a nature when that subject "exhausts" all that is in that nature, such that, the subject is identically equal to that nature. In this sense, Adam does not have "full posseession" of human nature, since he does not exhaust all that is in human nature, and thus he is not identically equal to human nature (nor can this be said of any man, for that matter).

But, in expressing belief in the Trinity, it is this second sense of "full possession" of a nature that we are using when we say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each in full possession of the Divine Nature (for, each of the Three Persons "exhausts" the Divine Nature in Themselves, each being identically equal to the One Divine Nature). Thus, the above comparison of Adam to the Father does not follow.

But, perhaps at some time (not now), it would be best to simply give a summary of the basis for believing in, and the basic meaning of, the doctrine on the Trinity.

Peace....

In Christ,
BrotherAlan

"To Christ be glory forever!" (Heb. 13:21)

[BrotherAlan]

Greetings--
Returning to this thread here....some more thoughts on the Trinity.

The traditional formulation of the Christian doctrine on the Trinity states that there is one and the same God in three distinct, though perfectly equal, divine Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Each divine Person is fully God, and so they are all perfectly equal to each other. Yet they are really distinct from each other, being distinguished according to their distinct relations towards each other (for example, the Father eternally begets the Son; thus, the Father is related to the Son as the unbegotten "begetter" to one who is begotten). The Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, the Holy Spirit is fully God. Yet the Father is not the Son; and neither the Father nor the Son is the Holy Spirit. Yet, there are not three Gods, but one God. There are not three divine natures, but one divine nature, being fully possessed by each of the three Divine Persons (a nature being that which answers the question, "What is it?" A person being that which answers the question, "Who is it?").

Thus, the doctrine of the Trinity renders fuller meaning to the Scriptural truth that "God is love." (1 John 4:8) For, God not only loves His creatures; but, moreso, God has perfect love within Himself. For, the Trinity is a communion of Three Divine Persons united in an infinite and eternal love for each other. The Good News of Jesus Christ is that all are invited to enter into this eternal love of the Trinity. It is, thus, the most important, mystical, and beautiful truth that Jesus Christ (Who is the Truth) came to reveal to us.

Now, the fact that God is a Trinity is taught by the Scriptures:

• The Scriptures teach that there is one God in Deut. 4:35, Isaiah 45:5, etc.
  
  That the Father is God is clearly taught in many places (eg., John 17:3).
  
  That the Son is God (aka., the Word of God, Jesus Christ) is likewise explicitly taught, or certainly implied, in a good many places in Scripture, as the start of this thread showed. "The Word was God." (John 1:1) (see also, John 1: 9; John 8:42; John 14:6; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1 (entire chapter); John 5:20; Rev. 2:13; etc., etc., etc.) The Son is, of course, also true Man (for He was born of a woman, Mary (Gal. 4:4; Lk 2:7); and women only give birth to human sons, so Christ is human....and Divine. Two natures, one divine Person).
  
  That the Holy Spirit is God is likewise taught in multiple places in Scripture, in virtue of the fact that divine qualities are attributed to the Holy Spirit (for example, 1 Cor. 2:10 says that the Holy Spirit knows all things, even the depths of God-- something that can truly be said only of God). Further, Scripture says that we "are the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you...." (1 Cor. 6:19) But, it is proper to God to have a temple (so, it follows that the Holy Spirit is God).
  
  That the three divine Persons are perfectly equal to each other is true, because, as the aforementioned passages show, they are one and the same God.
  
  That the Persons are really distinct from each other is also taught in the Scriptures. That the Father is distinct from the Son is taught in Christ's words, "I am not alone, because the Father is with me." (John 16:32) But, only the presence of another person, distinct from one's self, can cause one to not be alone. So, since the Father's presence causes Christ to not be alone, the Father must be a another Person, distinct from the Son. That the Father and the Son are both distinct from the Holy Spirit is, for example, known by the fact that both the Father and the Son are said to send the Holy Spirit (see John 14:16-17; John 16:7). For, no one "sends" himself; rather, one sends another person distinct from himself. So, the Holy Spirit is a distinct Person from both the Father and the Son.

These teachings are also found in the firm testimony of the early Church (eg., in the early Church's creeds, liturgies, councils, and writings of the early Church Fathers).

Likewise, the experience of many of the great Christian contemplative mystics throughout the ages has been one of experiencing God as a Trinity. Consider, for example, the following description of Christian contemplative prayer given by one Christian mystic:

• "[The soul] sees these three Persons indivdiually and yet, by a wonderful kind of knowledge which is given to it, the soul realizes that most certainly and truly all these three Persons are one substance and one power and one knowledge and one God alone; so that what we hold by faith the soul may be said here to grasp by sight, although nothing is seen by the eyes, either of the body or the soul, for it is no imaginative vision. Here all three Persons communicate themselves to the soul and speak to the soul and explain to it those words which the Gospel attributes to the Lord, namely, that he and the Father and the Holy Spirit will come to dwell with the soul which loves him and keeps his commandments." (Teresa of Avila, "The Interior Castle", Ch. 1)

Likewise, Christian theologians have, throughout the centuries, given some very insightful (and beautiful) descriptions of this great mystery, which have led Christians to a greater understanding of, and appreciation for, the mystery. Many theologians (especially Augustine) have pointed out that we do see many "glimpses" of the Trinity in many parts of creation. For example, the human family is a kind of image of the Trinity; for, ideally, a human family is a community of distinct persons bonded by one nature and one love, where the love between father and mother is so strong that it generates another person (this has some similarity to the union of nature and love that exists in the Trinity, where the love between the Father and the Son is so strong that it actually is another Person, the Holy Spirit). Likewise, the interior operations within the human soul also give us a feint image of the Trinity (the interior procession of a word/thought from a human mind mirrors the eternal, interior procession of the Word (the Son) from the Father; the interior procession of love from human wills mirrors the interior procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son). Yet, these are still only feint images of the Trinity in creation; there is nothing at all in creation that gives us a perfect image of the Trinity (for, that perfect image is found only in God Himself, not in creation).

So, the efforts of Christians to explain the mystery of the Trinity in human words does help us to grow in our understanding and appreciation of the mystery. Nevertheless, the mystery itself-- as distinct from the doctrine on the mystery-- far exceeds anything that human words can say about it (as beautiful and true as those words are). For, the Trinity is a supernatural, incomprehensible mystery (but, we should expect this of God, for God is a mystery). For, it is not possible for us to fully understand how three distinct Persons can all be one and the same God; that is an incomprehensible mystery for us, far exceeding anything that we can comprehend. This teaching is not contrary to reason (for, there is nothing in the notion of "nature", nor of "person", which says that a single, self-subsisting nature (such as God is) cannot be fully possessed by three distinct persons (such as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are)). Rather, it is way above anything we could know by reason alone. In fact, it would be impossible to know such a truth, were it not for the fact that God has revealed it (for, unlike the existence of the one God, which is both revealed and -- with much effort-- able to be proved by human reason; the existence of God, as a Trinity, is entirely above reason, and so it could only be known if God revealed it to be so).

But, this mystery of the Trinity has been revealed by God, Who can neither deceive nor be deceived. Therefore, the proper response to this revelation is FAITH. We can not fully understand this mystery (nor any revealed supernatural mystery, for that matter). But, we can make an act of faith to BELIEVE the mystery, knowing-- with the certitude of Faith-- that what He reveals is true. That is what faith is (and this act of faith is something that we-- with God's grace-- can choose to make; or we can choose to not make it. But, the choice is up to us).

May the peace of Christ be with you.

In Christ,
BrotherAlan

"Simon Peter replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 16:17)

[Paidion]

Jesus said, “Whom do people say that I am?” His disciples replied, “Some say you are John the Baptist returned from the dead; others say Elijah or another of the prophets.”

Jesus replied, “But whom do you say that I am?”

Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Logos, existing in the Father as his rationality and then, by an act of his will, being generated, in consideration of the various functions by which God is related to his creation, but only because Scripture speaks of a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity being coequal with every other member and each acting inseparably with and interpenetrating every other member, with only an economic subordination within God, but causing no division which would make the substance no longer simple.”

And Jesus answered, saying, “What?”

[steve7150]

I'm just a layman but it seems to me to say Jesus is God is a similarly misleading statement as saying Mary is the mother of God. Jesus as the logos of God IMO must be divine but he is not God Almighty yet he seems to be not "a god" but part of God Almighty. God's thoughts,reasoning,will and Word made flesh into his Son when he was born as a human. Then there is the Holy Spirit who sometimes sounds like a person yet if he is a person should'nt Jesus be the Son of the Holy Spirit?

[Amyfree]

I thought the Holy Spirit was the trinity- the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit- since that would be so huge the Holy Spirit is a huge thing; and we are the kingdom of God. Jesus the son of God is God, and God his Father is God. They think Jesus is a beautiful name and it sure is, but I think God is an even more beautiful name.

The bible and churches (cath.) taught that Mary was Jesus' mother. I don't think that is hard to believe. There was a photograph a few Christmas' ago, (sorry), of Joseph walking alongside the donkey that pregnant Mary rode on to where Jesus was born. I'll have to email my online girlfriend to get another copy of that photo.

Amyfree

[Paidion]

I'm just a layman but it seems to me to say Jesus is God is a similarly misleading statement as saying Mary is the mother of God. Jesus as the logos of God IMO must be divine but he is not God Almighty yet he seems to be not "a god" but part of God Almighty. God's thoughts,reasoning,will and Word made flesh into his Son when he was born as a human. Then there is the Holy Spirit who sometimes sounds like a person yet if he is a person should'nt Jesus be the Son of the Holy Spirit?

Your reasoning makes sense to me, Steve, except the thought that Jesus seems to be part of God Almighty. Is a human child part of his father? Once that child was begotten, while he was growing in the womb, he was in some sense "part of his mother" but in the most basic sense a separate individual. After his birth he is in no sense part of his mother, at least not physically.

Justin Martyr compared the begetting of the Son of God with lighting a smaller fire from a larger one. It is completely separate from the larger fire after it is lit, but yet of the "same substance". And so the Son of God after His begetting is of the same essence as the Father, but is a separate Individual in the sense of having a separate consciousness. He is divine like His Father, just as a you are human like your father.

As for the Holy Spirit, I understand Him (or It) to be personal, but not a third divine Individual. The Father and the Son share the same Spirit, and can extend their Personalities (The Holy Spirit) anywhere in the Universe, especially into the hearts or minds of God's people --- as Jesus said to His disciples, "The Father and I will come to you and make our dwelling with you." Another indicator that the Holy Spirit is not a third Person is that nowhere in the Bible is prayer offered to the Holy Spirit.

As for Jesus being God, it depends on what is meant by "God". I don't believe He is God in the Trinitarian sense of a compound God consisting of three divine Persons. If that were the case, one would expect that the word "God" to be used in the Bible in that sense, but it isn't so used even once. Also, the expression "God the Father" is used several times in the scriptures. But not once will you find "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" in the Bible. These terms seem to be used only by Trinitarians. I don't think even Modalists use them.

Nor is Jesus God in the sense of being the same divine Individual as the Father. That idea is the position of Modalism.

So in what sense is the word "God" used so that Jesus can truly be called "God"? In the sense of divinity. This is the sense used in John 1:1 where it says "And the logos was God" and in John 1:18 where He is called "the only-begotten God". Both Jesus and His Father are divine, and of course, the Holy Spirit, the extended Personalities of the Father and the Son, is divine.