Rev 1:13 Paps means female breast!!

SouthernNYer
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Rev 1:13 Paps means female breast!!

Post by SouthernNYer » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:37 pm

I really am hoping I can put this question to rest once and for all because it has been driving me crazy looking for the correct meaning.
Maybe you have heard this but I only found out a few months ago and have never found a satisfactory answer to date.
Rev 1:13 quote: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

The word "paps" is "mastos" in Greek and refers to a WOMAN"S BREAST and is only used that way in the Bible. A man's chest is "stethos" in Greek. I have checked the original Greek and this is the correct words used.. The King James simply used paps, which is I believe also referring to female breasts. Every other place in the NT, "stethos" is used for our Lords chest.

EX: "Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast (stethos) saith unto him, Lord, who is it? (John 13:25)"
AND
"Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast (stethos) at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? (John 21:20)"


Here is what makes this such a big problem. We all know that the pagans worshiped a half man / half woman so called deity such as Apollo and the goat headed Baphomet that has both male and female traits. We also know that Revelation was the last book accepted into the canon and many rejected it in the 3rd century.
I find this very troubling because I love our Father and His Son very much but am really starting to have doubts as to whether this book really belongs in the Bible. The more I read it, the more I am seeing more confusion than a finality to the Bible. Who are the 7 Spirits before the throne of God? Who are the angels to the churches? There are many examples in this book that simply does not have any explanation in the other books, but then, I am hoping someone will prove me wrong because I hate thinking that there could have been a mistake or even a devious plan because that would mean there could be other faults. Something I do not want to consider. But, in the end, I do not worship the Bible, I worship the God that it is about.. So this will not change my beliefs.. but there are many things in Revelations that are the cornerstone of most churches today.. and without them, it would be a real loss..

I hope that Steve, as well as other Biblical experts can help me out on this.

SouthernNYer
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Re: Rev 1:13 Paps means female breast!!

Post by SouthernNYer » Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:00 am

It is funny sometimes how God works. He makes us take action to find answers and then He will show the truth.
I have searched online for months looking for a solid answer to the above question but only after posting it here did I find a rational answer. It wasn't there before.. I have Googled and Binged and Yahoo-ed it to death, but the correct answer was not to be found until I posted it here.

So it appears the sites throwing this out at Christians are coming from Muslims, who are claiming that the Bible states that Jesus had women's breasts.. which is both ridiculous and sick..
The answer lies in the Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament which define mastos as meaning: “the breast of a man” and then they quote Revelataion 1:13 as it stands in the King James Bible. The second definition is “the breast of a woman” and give the references of Luke 11:27 and 23:29.

Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines the Greek word mastos as 1. “the breasts or nipples of a man.” and then cites Revelation 1:13 and 2. “the breasts of a woman.”

And Liddell & Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon likewise defines mastos as meaning: “a woman’s breast” and “generally, of the breasts of all mammals.”
So in the end.. "mastos" can be both a male and a female.. It means breast, which is used many times throughout the Bible describing men and woman.. It is only used in Rev 1:13 with the word "mastos" in the NT, the other places call it "stethos" . It is still a bit strange I think, but it will suffice. Still, if anyone has a comment, I would love to hear it..

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TK
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Re: Rev 1:13 Paps means female breast!!

Post by TK » Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:58 pm

So did males breast feed in the past or will they be doing so in the future? ;)

SouthernNYer
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Re: Rev 1:13 Paps means female breast!!

Post by SouthernNYer » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:29 am

Not sure.. After listening to some of the answers given on the radio show archives... I believe I made a mistake posting here.. I am looking for truth even if it is unpopular.. and I don't see that happening here..

SouthernNYer
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Re: Rev 1:13 Paps means female breast!!

Post by SouthernNYer » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:29 am

Not sure.. After listening to some of the answers given on the radio show archives... I believe I made a mistake posting here.. I am looking for truth even if it is unpopular.. and I don't see that happening here..

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Paidion
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Re: Rev 1:13 Paps means female breast!!

Post by Paidion » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:06 pm

Don't give up too soon. I think nearly all of us here are likewise searching for truth and reality.

Initially, I was going to answer your original post, but the answers that you yourself gave, were also the ones that I discovered in checking out the Greek of the word translated as "paps."
Paidion

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darinhouston
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Re: Rev 1:13 Paps means female breast!!

Post by darinhouston » Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:06 am

I'd hate to see you throw out the baby with the bathwater -- if you are seeking answers on the other questions you raised about Revelation, I recommend Steve's Revelation and/or Eschatology series -- he leaves no stone unturned. Except that I don't recall him ever dealing with this breast issue. It's the sort of thing he could no doubt shed some light on.

On this matter, as you say you have checked the Greek sources (and especially since Paidion agrees with the definition), I have no answer. However, I always hesitated drawing theological distinctions based on our modern understanding of the ancient greek semantic range of a single work, particularly in a single context. It is possible there are meanings lost to us or at least misunderstood by scribes and this could simply be a textual problem.

In any event, I hope you will explore Steve's teachings if you are seeking answers to make better sense out of Revelation. By it's nature and our distance from the original authorship, it will no doubt always have some confusion and/or mystery to us in our modernity, but I find that in other places clearly canonic.

Good luck and godspeed. I wish I had something better to offer on this subject, but you've piqued my interest. Hopefully, others will have some wisdom to share.

You will find this a free thinking but truth seeking crowd if truth is what you seek.

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darinhouston
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Re: Rev 1:13 Paps means female breast!!

Post by darinhouston » Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:23 am

One thought I do have in looking at the passage is that it is possible that the term "stethos" refers generally to the "chest" of a man, but that just as we might use "breast" anatomically to refer even to a man's nipple and surrounding area, we still consider that in most of its usage to refer to a woman's breast. Since we usually aren't actually referring contextually to a man's nipple region when talking about his "chest" but instead the larger area above the abdomen and below the neck, we usually refer to "chest." But, when we talk about a man having "man-boobs" or the like, we might use the term "breast" even for a man notwithstanding its more typical reference to a woman even in today's usage. We do always refer to the man has having a "breastbone" and not a "chest bone," so I do consider there is and likely was a large semantic range for the term even in the Greek.

Now, in the context of the passage... why might they have used the word more frequently associated with the woman's breast in this passage? Maybe it has nothing to do with gender, but to be specific, anatomically. Perhaps it was significant that the item was in fact girded not just across the chest, generally above the stomach/waistline, but to designate that it was girded specifically across or just under the nipples. I can't imagine why this anatomical detail was important except perhaps that it was important that it was girded as high as possible under the armpits. Why not use that term in other passages of the bible? Perhaps, because it wasn't important what part of Jesus' upper region John was lying against.


Hope that helps.

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darinhouston
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Re: Rev 1:13 Paps means female breast!!

Post by darinhouston » Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:23 am

Here's another interesting source... http://www.psephizo.com/biblical-studie ... evelation/ -- some textual background and interesting reference to the corresponding passages in Daniel, pointing out that this is one of the deviations from the Daniel passage perhaps indicating that it was important that in the OT, it was about his waist, and in this context it was at its full height. So, I guess I was onto something above. I'd love to know what that symbolic difference might mean.

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Re: Rev 1:13 Paps means female breast!!

Post by SouthernNYer » Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:20 am

darinhouston wrote:Here's another interesting source... http://www.psephizo.com/biblical-studie ... evelation/ -- some textual background and interesting reference to the corresponding passages in Daniel, pointing out that this is one of the deviations from the Daniel passage perhaps indicating that it was important that in the OT, it was about his waist, and in this context it was at its full height. So, I guess I was onto something above. I'd love to know what that symbolic difference might mean.
It is probably something close to what you say.. I have read through Daniel and also Steve's books and classes many times.. a vast resource of info but no, he doesn't mention this ..
The reason this "could" be a problem is the fact that Revelation was almost not in our Bible.. as you probably know, it was the last or one of the last books approved.. and it just ties in too closely with Gnostic and pagan beliefs about androgynous gods..
I am, at this point, still accepting the book as inspired scripture, but this really got me thinking.. We know that there were some changed made to certain books.. I know Steve's teaching on this, and we agree with each other for the most part.. I do have some differences in my belief but not enough to mention.. I trust that Steve is teaching us as much truth as he knows.. which is quite a lot.. and all the people here, like yourself, Paidon and many others as well are very well versed..I am studying Greek as well.. far from an expert right now.. but I want to learn Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic.. but this was easy .. It is in the Strong's concordance and sticks out like a sore thumb..


Back to the question.. You are right.. It may be that it is simply a case of the height or place on the body is significant.. I will keep researching and if I learn anything new, I will certainly report it here. I am sure it has piqued some interest..

God Bless to all and have a very good month..It is a strange one..

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