Have all husbands been defiled?

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Paidion
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Have all husbands been defiled?

Post by Paidion » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:03 pm

I suppose the following passage from revelation can be interpreted in a figurative sense. But many believe in the 144K as being an actual group of perfected saints who are yet to appear, or who have appeared in the past, or who continue to appear throughout the centuries ad domini (as JWs do).

They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. (Rev 14: 3,4 NKJV)

Now if the writer had written, "These are the ones who were not defiled with women" as a complete sentence, one could suppose that he meant that these ones did not consort with prostitutes or live a promiscuous life. But that clause at the end of the sentence "for they are virgins" suggests that this is the reason and the only reason they were not defiled with women—that if they had not been virgins they would have been defiled with women. This is the way I understand the writer. Maybe you don't understand it this way.

I would be happy to read your thoughts on the matter.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Have all husbands been defiled?

Post by Homer » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:41 am

Hi Paidion,

If this is to be taken literally:

"the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins"

I would say it is not necessary to understand it as referring to married men and relations with their wives but a virgin man has certainly not consorted with prostitutes, his neighbors wife, etc. But then why would God exalt them in particular?

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steve
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Re: Have all husbands been defiled?

Post by steve » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:52 am

The virgins, in Revelation, are those who have not consorted with the Great Harlot, or with her "daughters" (17:5). If this were talking about literal virginity, then married men would be excluded. This would be tantamount to "forbidding to marry," which Paul regarded to be a "doctrine of demons" (1 Timothy 4:1, 3).

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Paidion
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Re: Have all husbands been defiled?

Post by Paidion » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:50 pm

Hi Homer, you wrote:I would say it is not necessary to understand it as referring to married men and relations with their wives but a virgin man has certainly not consorted with prostitutes, his neighbors wife, etc. But then why would God exalt them in particular?
...the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins

Thank you for your thoughts, Homer. I can see, Homer, that one might interpret the description of the 144K as saying that these are ones that were certainly not defiled by women, for they are virgins, and not implying that ALL non-virgins have defiled themselves with women.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Paidion
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Re: Have all husbands been defiled?

Post by Paidion » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:14 pm

Hi Steve, you wrote:The virgins, in Revelation, are those who have not consorted with the Great Harlot, or with her "daughters" (17:5). If this were talking about literal virginity, then married men would be excluded. This would be tantamount to "forbidding to marry," which Paul regarded to be a "doctrine of demons" (1 Timothy 4:1, 3).
Thank you, Steve. I can see how you might relate it to those who are figuratively called "virgins" in that they have not consorted with the great Harlot described in chapter 17.
However the phrase "...the ones who were not defiled with women" would not seem to fit. Why does the writer use the plural "women"? I know you added "or with her daughters", but I find nothing about her daughters in the text. Indeed, the word "daughter" or "daughters" is not found in the entire book of Revelation. So who would these "daughters" be? Certainly not the kings who are "fornicating" with the "harlot."

Ah. It just struck me now! I think you interpret the harlot to be the city of Rome in 70 A.D. So her daughters would be the other cities which came into being through Rome and were under its authority. Being a futurist, I hadn't thought of that.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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steve
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Re: Have all husbands been defiled?

Post by steve » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:40 pm

Hi Paidion,

"Defiled themselves with women" would have to refer to immoral women, since it could not apply to wives "Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled" (Heb.13:4).

I deduce that the Harlot had daughters from the fact that she is "the mother of harlots" (Rev.17:5). I don't think they had the colloquialism we have now (as in "the mother of all wars"). It seems that it is referring to "harlots" spawned by the Great Harlot. Unless all of those harlots are men, she must have female offspring.

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Paidion
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Re: Have all husbands been defiled?

Post by Paidion » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:48 pm

Thanks again, Steve. I hadn't paid adequate attention to the phrase "the mother of harlots".
Both of your paragraphs explain much.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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