when Revelation was written

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Paidion
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Re: when Revelation was written

Post by Paidion » Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:42 pm

SteveF you wrote:I don't necessarily agree with the author's logic but the line "Paul himself, following the example of his predecessor John, writes by name to only seven churches in the following sequence" certainly seems to indicate that this AD 170 writer thought the book of Revelation was written early....in fact, much earlier than 67.
And you get that from the fact that he calls John the predecessor of Paul? Does that not mean simply that John was predecessor in the sense that he had become a disciple of Christ much earlier than Paul?

I doubt that it that his calling John the predecessor of Paul refers to his having written Revelation earlier than Paul wroted his letters to the churches.
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Re: when Revelation was written

Post by SteveF » Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:39 pm

I doubt that it that his calling John the predecessor of Paul refers to his having written Revelation earlier than Paul wroted his letters to the churches.
It could have that meaning, but the fact that he mentions that Paul followed John's example of writing to 7 churches seems to indicate that he thought John wrote Revelation first (or at least before Paul finished his writing his last letter).

It seems if the writer had this in mind he is clearly mistaken. I think at least one of the churches that John wrote to didn't exist until the 60's (I think Paul wrote his last letter in 64 or 65??). There may have been other churches that Paul wrote to that didn't make it into the canon. Therefore, the letters we have in the NT are more likely left to providence rather than anything Paul had in mind.

Having said all that, it still seems evident to me that the writer of this document thought that Revelation was written before Paul completed his letters. As I said, I don't follow his logic but I think that's what he believed.

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Re: When was the Revelation written?

Post by dean198 » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:47 am

It has only been since the modern Praeterist positions that this clear Church witness has been considered as hard to understand.
This statement is obviously not true. Irenaeus' statement has been seen as problematic for various reasons for some time. Farrar for example suggested that Domitian and Domitius (i.e. Nero) may have been confused. Robert Young made the same argument, long before Chilton:
_Priestly1 wrote:I believe David Chilton is the first to say that both Eusebius and Irenaeus are unclear as to who or what is being spoken about. No Greek or Latin Scholar I have read has ever made a notation in these passages that the meaning is difficult because the text is unclear.....only a Praeterist requires this claim so as to nullify the 96 CE date of the Revelation.
This is a very irresponsible claim. Chilton provides a long list of scholars who held that Revelation was written in the 60s long before the twentieth century - Isaac Newton, Adam Clarke, Frederic Farrar, Bishop Westcott, Lightfoot, Hort, Michaelis, and so forth.
_Priestly1 wrote: As is the reference to the martyrdom of the bishop of Pergamos, namely +Antipas. He was arrested, tried and convicted by the Provincial Governor as an Atheist and insurrectionist during the early years of Domitianus' reign. Not in Nero's rule.
Where is the evidence for this? We don't even have any record of Antipas - we know nothing of him besides what we read in the Revelation.
_Priestly1 wrote:
Thirdly, the Church of Asia Minor was not under Imperial persecution under Nero, but was first subjected to Imperial persecution under Domitian.
We don't have any evidence of Domitian even persecuting the church, though some Christians were among the upper classes at Rome whom he had killed or banished. But this persecution against the Christians came to an end after grandchildren of Jude appeared before him. Church tradition records that Erastus, chamberlain of Corinth, Aristarchus of Macedonia, and Trophimus, an Ephesian, were martyred by Nero.
_Priestly1 wrote:
Fourthly, John was not given Imperial clemency until the death of Domitian and the rise of Emperor Nerva in 96 CE. This too is attested to in Book 3 section 20: "After 15 years of Domitian's rule Nerva succeeded to the throne....At that time too the apostle John, efter his exile on the island, resumed residence at Ephesos, as early Christian tradition records." Did John dwell on Patmos from 64 CE under Nero Caesar all the way through to Emperor Nerva? That is a total of 8 Emperors and 35 years! There is not Church record of this......but David Chilton and all who espouse Praeterism must assume this right?
Again, Eusebius is relying on Irenaeus. This is no new argument. But Origen says it was the king of the Romans. Clement says it was the tyrant who banished him, and that after his return he went travelling through Asia Minor, appointing bishops. He even chased after a young man on a horse with all his might. While in his 90s? Seriously? And this was said to be many years after the return.
Last edited by dean198 on Wed May 20, 2009 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: when Revelation was written

Post by dean198 » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:05 am

Paidion wrote:
SteveF you wrote:I don't necessarily agree with the author's logic but the line "Paul himself, following the example of his predecessor John, writes by name to only seven churches in the following sequence" certainly seems to indicate that this AD 170 writer thought the book of Revelation was written early....in fact, much earlier than 67.
And you get that from the fact that he calls John the predecessor of Paul? Does that not mean simply that John was predecessor in the sense that he had become a disciple of Christ much earlier than Paul?

I doubt that it that his calling John the predecessor of Paul refers to his having written Revelation earlier than Paul wroted his letters to the churches.
It's not possible - it very clearly says that Paul's writing to seven churches was following the rule of John his predecessor - so John had to have written to seven churches prior to Paul. Ephesians is (I believe) Paul's very last book, probably written c. 66/67 - and after John wrote.

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Re: when Revelation was written

Post by steve » Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:13 am

dean198,

Thanks for resurrecting this old thread and for adding new information.

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Re: when Revelation was written

Post by dean198 » Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:23 am

steve wrote:dean198,

Thanks for resurrecting this old thread and for adding new information.
I think this would be a great thread to resurrect if people want to. There's so much information out there now.

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Re:

Post by dean198 » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:16 am

_Steve wrote: Polycarp does not state that the church of Smyrna did not exist in the reign of Nero. His actual statement has to do with the time of Paul's writing of the canonical epistle to the Philippians. In writing later to the same church about Paul's having written to them previously, Polycarp says, "for we had not yet known [the Lord]." (Letter to the Philippians 11:3). Since Paul's letter to that church was written, probably, no later than 63 AD, Polycarp is only saying something that applies to that date.
I agree it only applies to the date of the writing of Philippians. But an increasing number of scholars - and I think for very good reason - now date Philippians to c. 54 from an Ephesian imprisonment. This leave the whole of the 60s free for Revelation.

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Re: when Revelation was written

Post by Paidion » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:49 pm

Irenaeus wrote:For this vision was not seen a long time ago, but almost in my own life time, AT THE END OF DOMITIAN'S REIGN.
Dean198 wrote:The ambiguity is in knowing what actually was seen.
Several times, I have encountered this idea about there being some ambiguity as to what was seen. But Irenaeus' statement is not at all ambiguous. In the quote above, he clearly stated that it was John's vision which was seen. All that was revealed to John on the Isle of Patmos, he saw in a vision from the Lord. Repeatedly throughout Revelation, John describes what he saw in his vision. Here are a few exampes:

Revelation 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,

Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals;

Revelation 5:2 and I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?"

Revelation 5:6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth;

Revelation 6:1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say, as with a voice of thunder, "Come!"

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and its rider had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Revelation 6:5 When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" And I saw, and behold, a black horse, and its rider had a balance in his hand;

Revelation 6:8 And I saw, and behold, a pale horse, and its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him; and they were given power over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
Paidion

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Re: when Revelation was written

Post by dean198 » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:56 pm

Several times, I have encountered this idea about there being some ambiguity as to what was seen. But Irenaeus' statement is not at all ambiguous. In the quote above, he clearly stated that it was John's vision which was seen. All that was revealed to John on the Isle of Patmos, he saw in a vision from the Lord. Repeatedly throughout Revelation, John describes what he saw in his vision. Here are a few exampes:
I also agree that I thought that Irenaeus was probably referring to the vision - however we don't know for sure, and I think that caution should be exercised - I've read plausible arguments for 'John was seen' and 'it [the original autograph] was seen'.
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Re: when Revelation was written

Post by Paidion » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:21 pm

There is a bit of internal evidence that Revelation was written at a later date.

Revelation 1:10 I came to be in the spirit ἐν τῃ κυριακῃ ἡμερᾳ (in the Lordly day)...

"κυριακος" is an adjective which literally means "Lordly", though it is usually translated as "Lord's". The word is not found in the Septuagint Old Testament, nor in the Apocrypha. It was used by Paul in reference to the Love Feast which Paul called "the Lordly supper" in I Corinthians 11:20. Perhaps Paul himself coined the word. After all he coined the word "ελαχιστοτερος" (leaster) [Ephesians 3:8], found in no other Greek writing. Paul formed this new word from the word "ελαχιστος" (least). So my guess is that he coined the word "κυριακος" as well. The word was later applied to Sunday, the Lordly Day, that is the special day set aside for the Lord Jesus.

In earlier apostolic times, Sunday was never called "the Lordly day". "On Sunday", or "on the first day of the week" was written as "τῃ μιᾳ των σαββατων" (in the one of the sabbaths) as in Mt 28:1, Mk 16:2, Lk 24:1 Jn 20:1, Jn 20:19 and Ac 20:7. Apparently "sabbath" came to be used as a synonym for "week" . So the expression held the idea of "Day 1 of the week".

The apostle John himself used the expression twice in his gospel. So why would he switch to referring to Sunday as "the Lordly day" when he (or whoever) wrote Revelation? Was it because this expression began to be used for Sunday at a later time? Ignatius (or some one claiming to be Ignatius, or someone interpolating the writings of Ignatius) wrote in the letter to the Magnesians chapter 9:

"And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lordly day as a festival, the resurrection day, the queen of all the days."

Even to this day, the dative case of ""κυριακος"" namely "κυριακῃ" is used in Greece for Sunday.

Lest anyone thinks the writer of Revelation in 1:10 was not referring to Sunday, but to "the day of the Lord", I refer you to part of Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown's commentary on the verse:

"The day of the Lord" is different in Greek from "the Lord's (an adjective) day" which latter in the ancient church always designated our Sunday.

So it is my contention that if Revelation had been written prior to 70 A.D., the usual expression for Sunday would have been used "τῃ μιᾳ των σαββατων" (in the one of the Sabbaths). Since, instead, the later Christian expression was used," ἐν τῃ κυριακῃ ἡμερᾳ" (in the Lordly day), there is strong indication that the traditional date assigned to the writing of Revelation, 90 A.D. or so, combined with the early Christian statements that the vision was seen at the end of Domitian's reign, adds evidence upon evidence for the traditional date.
Paidion

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