The faith OF Jesus Christ

Si
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The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by Si » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:41 pm

I have been reading the KJV lately, and came across a verse in Galatians which really stuck out to me. Note the differences in the underlined parts.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
For comparison, the NKJV:
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
I consulted several modern major translations and they render it like the NKJV. I consulted Young's Literal Translation, and an Interlinear Bible, and it appears that the KJV renders the passage more literally.

As someone who does not understand Greek, perhaps the modern translators convey the meaning correctly. But the more literal rendering seems to change the meaning. The faith spoken of is not that of the believer, even though their faith is mentioned "...we have believed". But by our belief in Christ, we might be justified by HIS faith. Perhaps his faith in the Father, in his purpose in emptying himself and becoming incarnate and being crucified, to do the will of the Father who sent him. Or perhaps the faith we have received, or been made able to receive, by an act of grace on his part.

Likewise, in verse 20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Jesus, who had faith in the plan of the Father, and faith in those who would in turn have faith in him, and loved them, gave himself for them.

These are just some thoughts I had on these differences I noticed in the readings in the KJV. Any input would be appreciated!

TruthInLove
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by TruthInLove » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:56 pm

Hi Si,

Perhaps this article will help you decide for yourself. It seems to give a pretty thorough discussion. The correct translation appears to be quite debatable.

"Faith IN Christ" or "Faithfulness OF Christ"

mikew
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by mikew » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:22 pm

There is an ambiguity between the meaning of 'faith in Jesus' and 'faithfulness of Jesus.' Such ambiguity appears perfect for the application to trust in Christ. I am strongly in favor of priority of "faith in Jesus" with enhancement sense that our trust is derived from the faithfulness of Jesus.

The Galatians 2:16 passage would lend further credence to such priority
Galatians 2:16 (ESV)
16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

A little paraphrase gives us (with v15)
Although we are Jews, not like gentiles who are sinners, we too (like the gentiles and following in their path of justification) know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. For we, following what the gentiles are doing, have also come to faith in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by our faith in Christ rather than by (our old Jewish ways of) works of the law, Because (we know and thusly demonstrate) by works of the law no one will be justified.

We Have the first part of this passage:
Although we are Jews, not like gentiles who are sinners, we too (like the gentiles and following in their path of justification) know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ.

The whole point of this is to show that Paul and Peter are acting more like gentiles here -- this point being in light of the fact that good numbers of gentiles were following the gospel message. This gospel message is that a person is justified by faith in Jesus Christ rather than by works of the law.

The next part of this passage is:
For we, following what the gentiles are doing, have also come to faith in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by our faith in Christ rather than by (our old Jewish ways of) works of the law,

As such Paul was reminding Peter that "we came to faith in Christ Jesus" (in the way gentiles did). The purpose of this faith was to be justified by our faith in Christ over against relying on works. It is the close connection of 'we came to faith in Christ' with the phrase 'in order to be justified by our faith in Christ' that reinforces the sense that 'justification is by our faith in Christ. Also, reinforcement of this idea is apparent due to the degree of parallel opposites ostensibly involving Peter's and Paul's actions: 1) their action of faith vs. 2) their action of works -- both are anthropocentric.

Just to complete the passage analysis, we have the text:
Because (we know and thusly demonstrate) by works of the law no one will be justified.

This last line was indicating their testimony of trust in Jesus. Their action of having faith in Jesus ultimately shows Peter and Paul as testifying that works of the law justify no one -- the affirmation of the lack of benefit from works of the law.

(Sorry about cutting this short. I won't be able to currently note how this understanding of verse 16 fits within Paul's rebuke of Peter.)

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Paidion
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by Paidion » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:27 pm

mikew wrote:There is an ambiguity between the meaning of 'faith in Jesus' and 'faithfulness of Jesus.'
I don't think there's an ambiguity in the Greek text of Galatians 2:16

δια πιστεως χριστου ιησου

The first two Greek words mean "through faith"
And "χριστου ιησου," being in the genitive case, indicates that the translation should be "of Jesus Christ."

William D. Mounce in his text "Basics of Biblical Greek" states, "The genitive case in Greek is the same as the possessive case in English (page 46, 7.3)

Yet, there are a significant number of translators who render it "in Jesus Christ." In my Online Bible Program, the following translations have "of Jesus Christ":
AKJV, AV, Darby, Diaglot, Douay, KJ21, LO, YLT
And these have it "in Jesus Christ" are: ASV, LEB, NHEB, NRSV, and Wey.

I don't know how the latter translators justify rendering the phrase as "in Jesus Christ," but perhaps they take the same liberty as some of the commentators do, who simply state that "of Jesus Christ" MEANS "in Jesus Christ."
Paidion

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dwight92070
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:32 pm

Just a thought here. I don't know anywhere in the Bible where it says that Jesus exercised faith, just like it is never mentioned that God exercised faith. I don't believe that God has faith, rather He is the object of our faith. If "faith is the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen", then God would never need faith. He does not need "assurance" of anything, and nothing is unseen to Him. Although we know that Jesus limited Himself in becoming a man, I don't see in scripture where He exercised faith, because He was God in the flesh. Would Jesus have faith in Himself? That doesn't make sense. Some might say that He had faith in His father, but He and the Father are one, so that too doesn't compute.
If all of that is true, then the verses in question would have to be translated "faith in Jesus", not "the faith of Jesus".

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Paidion
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by Paidion » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:15 pm

Thank you for that thought, Dwight.

All I was doing was stating the Greek, and a true rendering of the Greek is "faith OF Jesus Christ."
...knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16 KJ21)
But I will now share my own understanding—right or wrong:

First, it must be understood the word translated as "justified" usually means "made righteous" or "rendered righteous" rather than "counted righteous."
So a person cannot be truly rendered righteous by keeping the Mosaic law. For he may struggle all his life to keep it, but it will never make him righteous.
However when a person has the faith of Jesus Christ, that is, the same kind of faith that Jesus (the One who never sinned) had and also to have "believed in Jesus Christ" (that is trusted in Jesus Christ or had faith IN Jesus Christ), such a person can actually become righteous. (Of course having such faith doesn't imply that he will never again stumble and do something wrong).

Notice in the text there are two phrases concerning being made righteous: 1) having the faith of Jesus Christ and 2) having faith IN Jesus Christ.
It seems to me that Paul is saying that if a person possesses both forms of faith, he will be rendered righteous as a consequent.
Paidion

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Si
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by Si » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:08 pm

dwight92070 wrote:Just a thought here. I don't know anywhere in the Bible where it says that Jesus exercised faith, just like it is never mentioned that God exercised faith. I don't believe that God has faith, rather He is the object of our faith. If "faith is the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen", then God would never need faith. He does not need "assurance" of anything, and nothing is unseen to Him. Although we know that Jesus limited Himself in becoming a man, I don't see in scripture where He exercised faith, because He was God in the flesh. Would Jesus have faith in Himself? That doesn't make sense. Some might say that He had faith in His father, but He and the Father are one, so that too doesn't compute.
If all of that is true, then the verses in question would have to be translated "faith in Jesus", not "the faith of Jesus".
It says it in Hebrews 3,

Hebrews 3 NKJV, "1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. "

In Hebrews 4:15 NKJV, it says, "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin."

In Philippians 2:5 NKJV "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross."

To be fully human, and to be tempted in all ways like we were, and yet remain sinless, seems to me to be the greatest faith ever displayed.

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Homer
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by Homer » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:54 pm

I have thought for many years we (Christians) have made the error of diminishing Jesus' humanness. Seems to me it is not so admirable if you never sinned because you were incapable of sinning. Perhaps I am missing something.

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Paidion
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by Paidion » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:35 pm

Well... I, for one, think you're "right on the button," Homer. You're not missing a thing.

Satan, seemed to think Jesus was capable of sinning. Otherwise, the "temptation in the wilderness" would not have been a temptation at all, but a useless exercise in futility.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
The writer seems to have thought that Jesus was actually tempted to sin, and yet always overcame the temptation. For if Jesus had been incapable of sinning, He would have been incapable of being tempted also, wouldn't He have?

So I agree with you, Homer, that Jesus was fully human when He walked this earth. But I have a couple of questions, Homer. Was He still fully human after His resurrection? Will we be fully human after our resurrection? This may be a matter of terminology. What does it MEAN to be fully human?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwight92070
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:51 pm

Si wrote:
dwight92070 wrote:Just a thought here. I don't know anywhere in the Bible where it says that Jesus exercised faith, just like it is never mentioned that God exercised faith. I don't believe that God has faith, rather He is the object of our faith. If "faith is the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen", then God would never need faith. He does not need "assurance" of anything, and nothing is unseen to Him. Although we know that Jesus limited Himself in becoming a man, I don't see in scripture where He exercised faith, because He was God in the flesh. Would Jesus have faith in Himself? That doesn't make sense. Some might say that He had faith in His father, but He and the Father are one, so that too doesn't compute.
If all of that is true, then the verses in question would have to be translated "faith in Jesus", not "the faith of Jesus".
It says it in Hebrews 3,

Hebrews 3 NKJV, "1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. "

Dwight: To be "faithful to Him" is not the same as having "faith in Him". Those are totally different.

In Hebrews 4:15 NKJV, it says, "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin."

Dwight: Nothing here about Jesus having faith.

In Philippians 2:5 NKJV "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross."

Dwight: Nor here.

To be fully human, and to be tempted in all ways like we were, and yet remain sinless, seems to me to be the greatest faith ever displayed.
Dwight: This only gives confirmation to my point. We are hard-pressed to find scripture that shows that Jesus exercised faith.

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