Meaning of Flesh, Romans 7:14-18

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Homer
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Re: Meaning of Flesh, Romans 7:14-18

Post by Homer » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:43 pm

Hi Dizerner,

You wrote:
What ways do their flesh desires differently than humans? (Honest question I'm not being sarcastic).
Their desires are similar to our natural desires; I suppose that is why we hear of our "animal nature". But we are gifted with a conscience and revelation.

dizerner

Re: Meaning of Flesh, Romans 7:14-18

Post by dizerner » Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:48 am

It seems to me then, the Biblical idea of "flesh" cannot be biological processes but require, as you say, conscience and revelation.

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Re: Meaning of Flesh, Romans 7:14-18

Post by steve7150 » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:56 pm

The New International has "unspiritual" for "flesh" in verse 14 and "sinful nature" for "flesh" in verse 18. The meaning of flesh in verse 14 seems easy to ascertain; sarkikos means "in the manner of flesh" and easily fits the context. In verse 18 can the meaning of flesh be strictly literal or is the ego also necessarily included?

In Galatians 5:19-21 Paul list several of the deeds of the flesh:

Galatians 5:19-21 (NASB)

19. Now the deeds of the flesh (Grk. sarx) are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20. idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21. envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

How many of the sins of the flesh Paul lists are actually sins prompted by the physical body alone apart from the ego? The physical body needs air, water, food, clothing/shelter from the elements, hormones drive sexual desire, and safety from danger. These basic needs of the flesh can certainly drive all sorts of sinful behavior in fulfilling them. But sins such as coveting, envy, pride, gossip, idolatry, etc. would seem to spring from the mind rather than strictly the flesh. I'm thinking Paul had an inclusive meaning of flesh which included the unregenerate whole person.






I think the NIV went to far in it's translation to sinful nature and should have left it as "flesh." Yes apparently flesh includes emotions but we can figure this out.

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Re: Meaning of Flesh, Romans 7:14-18

Post by jeremiah » Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:40 pm

Regarding "flesh" (sarx) in chapter 7 he says the best sense of the word is "in my naturalness"
I think that is a perfect paraphrase of Paul's statement, "...in me, that is in my flesh..." For a few years now I have taken Paul to be meaning something like, 'in me, that is [me] in my flesh.' But I follow many who believe Paul to be describing a regenerated person in the whole passage. I think in chapter seven he takes on the role of someone who while he has been buried with Christ in baptism, and raised up again(Rom 6), he nonetheless finds himself still a slave to the sin he is supposed to be dead to. That is of course until he once again dies to himself and begins again to walk in the Spirit that gives him his very life and freedom from his old nature.
If the reference is to the regenerate person, why no mention of the Spirit and why such a powerlessness
as expressed?
I think it's simple, there is no mention of the Spirit and such an expression of powerlessness because he is playing the role of one who experiences being alive to God and yet in some measure(or maybe only in a particular struggle) is still a slave to his sin. To my mind this follows seamlessly from chapter 6 through 7 and is rounded off in the beginning to chapter 8.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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Homer
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Re: Meaning of Flesh, Romans 7:14-18

Post by Homer » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:30 am

Hi Jeremiah,

In your view that Chapters 6,7, & 8 flow seamlessly. I was wondering how you could possibly reconcile the apparent contradictions in chapters 6 & 7 (more verses could be cited):

Romans 6:22 (NASB)

22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Romans 7:14-15 (NASB)

14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

Then I came to this summary in Lange's commentary (I had previously considered this as a possible answer):
Paul here enters into a remarkable psychological analysis of the working of the law, in order to show that it, although holy and good in itself, cannot effect the sanctification of man, on account of the power of indwelling sin, which can be overcome only through redeeming grace. He gives a chapter out of his own experience, especially out of the transition period from the law to the gospel. In this experience, however, is reflected, to a certain extent, the history of the religious development of humanity as a whole. What is here so vividly individualized, repeats itself also in the experience of every earnest Christian. The law, instead of slaying sin, first brings it to full manifestation (vers. 7-13); in the internal contest it is proven powerless; it leads to the painful confession of helplessness (vers. 14-24); no other hope remains, save the grace of Christ (ver. 25).

Those expositors who follow the later Augustinian view refer vers. 14-25 to the regenerate because they are unwilling to ascribe to the natural man even this powerless longing after higher and better things. On the other hand, those who refer them to the unregenerate, urge this reason, that the regenerate man is not so powerless, so captive to sin, as the person here described, but has overcome the dominion of sin, as the Apostle clearly indicates in chapters 6 and 7. The correct interpretation lies between these two. Paul describes his state, not when sunk in sin, but when awakened to earnest struggles against sin under the scourge of the law, under preparation for a state of grace - i.e., in the period of transition from the law to the gospel, in the Judaico-legalistic state of awakening.
He goes on to say that this struggle occurs, in a modified form, in the regenerate.

dizerner

Re: Meaning of Flesh, Romans 7:14-18

Post by dizerner » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:04 am

I think the answer is here:

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires

Was Paul letting sin reign in Romans 7?

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Homer
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Re: Meaning of Flesh, Romans 7:14-18

Post by Homer » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:47 am

I do not think "letting" is the proper word for someone who is "sold into bondage".

dizerner

Re: Meaning of Flesh, Romans 7:14-18

Post by dizerner » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:42 pm

Homer wrote:I do not think "letting" is the proper word for someone who is "sold into bondage".
Fair point. But do you think your flesh is all better and sanctified now? I don't think it's anything but the same old flesh sold to sin.

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Homer
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Re: Meaning of Flesh, Romans 7:14-18

Post by Homer » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:58 pm

Hi Dizerner,
Fair point. But do you think your flesh is all better and sanctified now? I don't think it's anything but the same old flesh sold to sin.
I believe sanctification happens in two ways. We are set apart, or made "holy" when we are saved. And then the process of being saved from sin is on-going, never completed in this life. I do not know what you mean by "flesh" but I do not see it in a Gnostic dualist sense. When Paul said he was "sold under sin" you can't make that mean "I'm kinda, sorta better but bad at the same time" or that "I'm not great but better than I used to be". At the time Paul wrote being sold into slavery was clearly understood; you were fully under power of another.

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Re: Meaning of Flesh, Romans 7:14-18

Post by jeremiah » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:41 pm

Hey Homer,
you wrote:In your view that Chapters 6,7, & 8 flow seamlessly. I was wondering how you could possibly reconcile the apparent contradictions in chapters 6 & 7
I just don't see these as any apparent contradictions. Chapter 6 starts out asking the question of "shall we continue in sin," and what follows answers this. An answer I see continuing through chapters 7 and 8. Chapter 7:14 begins incorporating into the answer how we might continue in sin, which is soon after labeled as "living after the flesh" (ch8) Again, I just don't think the sharp distinctions of categories you're making are correct. Maybe you can expound on why exactly you think these are contradictions in the verses you've cited.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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